2nd track day in the books...hmmm....

[erics75218]

So I just got back from my 2nd tack day at Streets of Willow, pshew.....I have mixed reviews! :-(

First let me qualify my driving skill. I don't think I'm fast in any other way than, I've been on the track a few times on a bike, I understand the forces at work mostly, I don't push beyond my limits, I understand the concepts of lines, braking points etc. So I just want to say that I AM NOT FAST...but I'm not a beginner beginner neener neener beginner, if that makes sense. Basically I feel like I know why I'm slow, and I feel like I know what my car is not good at, or what I'm not good at getting out of my car. I'm not that douschebag who shows up with his Z06 and spins out all over, passes everyone on the straights, wears a full suit etc.....you know the guy.

First event at Streets of Willow, I can't remember the temperature, but I don't remember being hot, so I feel it was probably low 80s. The car was an 06' Exige, stock, Yoko a048 fronts almost shot, new Bridgestone RE-01 rears, so not even that "great" of a tire setup.

So my first ever track day, I went with the beginner group and had a GREAT day. Car felt amazing, my instructor kicked out because he thought I was plenty fast to go alone and should probably not be in the beginner class. I felt like I had taken a gun to a knife fight. Car was super stable , turn in, corner exit both seemed nice. Basically I felt I had 100% confidence in the car, it seemed PERFECT.

So today, I took my slightly modified Exige to the same track. It was hot, 95 ambient, not sure what the track temp was. I've put Ohlins on the car, gone to 16x7/17x8 all around and got some brand new Hankook street tires (I know..I can already here the sighs), and it's had an alignment.

On this day, good LORD, my car felt HORENDOUS. That might be a strong word, but I had no confidence in the car today. ANY kind of off throttle turning was on a knife edge. I never felt like I had any traction, I would get oddly "bogged down" coming out of turns. Perhaps I wasn't giving it enough gas I thought, so I started to give it more throttle earlier and I was just greeted with the traction control cutting in. In effect, I could have put on a damn nice drift show today with ease. I know for a FACT on a certain turn just after the straight I was MUCH less stable than before, and had I chosen to do so, could have taken that turn going sideways with all sorts of "fun drama"...and I know that was not the case on that first track day.

If my car before was a flat dumbbell end plate lying on the ground, it now feels like a football standing on end, if that makes sense. On occasion I could get this "pivoting" to aid me in feeling my car around the apex, which felt "neat" but not correct at all. And based on the cars around me, and their tires and corner entry speed and such...I don't feel that I was entering the corners to fast. I was the only Lotus out there so it was hard for me to tell....there is always the chance that I was taking the car WAY to deep, but I just don't think that I was taking the car WAY to deep in 3 turns, for 10 laps, for 4 sessions all day long.

So do any of you track gods have any advice, on a "generic" setup..I need to dig out what we set the shocks up with compression/rebound wise. Obviously my Hankooks aren't as good as 888s or the like. But I thought they would be at least as good as the hodge' podge' setup I had on it the first time.

I took no lap times at either event, so I can't tell you if I was in fact slower...but I can tell you that the car did NOT feel as good. I'm inclined to think Hankooks on 100' track temps may be slippery in general. Maybe I was going REALLY slow the first time and that's why it felt so stable? On this racing documentary I saw called "Days of Thunder" the crew chief said that fast is being on the edge of out of control...I felt that way today for sure.

p.s. I'm joking about DoT being a Documentary.

[Viggen]

I do not own a lotus so my experience if from driving my fwd saab's. Tires make a HUGE difference & so does the weather so I think you had 2 major things going against you

Lots of heat on the track will make the tires feel greesy & since the tires you used are much cheaper & not nearly as good with dealing with the heat they were probably above their max operating temp after a very short time causing the car to not feel planted at all. I have only driven 1 time in 90+ weather & with the Toyo RA-1's I use & it only took a few laps for the car to feel very weird, as the day went on and track temp increased it felt weird all session. At first I thought someone spilled oil or coolant on the track when all it was is the high track temps.

I would say go back to a good R tire's preferably if you want to do this consistantly get a 2nd set of rims, they will pay for themself pretty quick.

new street tires are about the worst thing you can do when going to a track. They are not designed to take the high temps they get from the lateral loads especailly with a full tread depth. You were also probably feeling the tread squirming all over the place.... did you chunk them at all?

[fishguy]

I used to roadrace motorcycles for several seasons, the transition to cars was easy for me.
what i have noticed is that most people who have tracked bikes are very good in cars on the track since all the fundamental principles are the same.

have fun

[rackhenry]

I own a 2006 Exige and had an eerily similar experience to you but in reverse order. Took my car to Fontana (Roval) and the car was not confidence inspiring to say the least. Took it to Willow last weekend and the car was nothing if not amazing. Difference??!!, Brand new A048, Track alignment and HT10's. So when I did the analysis, turns out the original tires were 3 years old and had heat cycled to death. My lessons learned.. The Exige/Elise is very sensitive to suspension alignment and tires. Also, I just purchased the car prior to my first event and did not know what to expect.

[erics75218]

It just occurred to me that the =only measurable difference in my 2 sessions are the width of my front tire/wheel combo. I had 16x6.5 with whatever tire comes on the stock exige fronts, can't remember. But now I've got 16x7 with 205/45s....so that's quite a bit more tire. The rear stayed the same, my shocks are setup (maybe incorrectly) uniform on all 4, so I'm thinking that new front tire might not be helping the feeling that the front of my car is really pulling the rear around, dog wag the tail style.

I took tire temps with a dudes laser gun when I was there....and I apologize but I'm still nervous "in the pits" so I can't remember EXACTLY what the readings were...but I believe they were in the 60' C....can't confirm though.

Also, what's a good alignment setup, I just had mine done, more street than aggressive track since it is my street car, I'm curious.

Yeah, now I'm thinking I need a track setup 15F 16R!! HAHAH...

Regarding tracking a bike first...I think a lot of it has to do with respect for the track. Take a car to the track the first time I can see how you might feel empowered. Take a bike to the track for the first time and it's VERY intimidating, at least it was to me.

[Viggen]

get a log book so you can write down your tire temps as well as PSI before & after each session so you know what you do/don't like.

[timmp]

550 horse, 2500 lb superformace cobra on street dunlops at thunderhill = greasy sliding mess (on throttle oversteer, off throttle understeer, wheeee). Car is "undriveable." Back to the pits, swap to track wheels and tires (same size as street setup), but Kuhmo V-racers, and now car is unflappable. Sticks like you cannot believe, will not understeer, works far better than I have the balls to find the limits of....

Tires for the track work great at the track. "Street tires" (A048s and such excluded), especially on a hot day, don't work well on the track. A048s may not be as sticky as the Kuhmos, but I found that they worked great on my Elise at t-hill.

best of luck!

t

[Chili Red]

The Lotus is very sensitive to tire and alignment changes. Im guessing your problem is coming from 3 areas.

1. Tires - stick with something that is known to work. A046, R888, Hoosier or RA1. I know for a fact that some of the street tires can make the car feel wacky on track.

2. Alignment - Make sure your shop knows how to align a lotus. Even a VERY small change in toe can make the car feel horrible and scary to drive.

3. Suspension - Find out the settings that other people are running on their Suspension and use that as a starting point.

[erics75218]

is running 205 on the front and 225 on the rear an issue in regards to "grip balance" v.s. the old 195' fronts.

Yeah man I need to take notes...I was hoping to find some Iphone software lol, but it appears it's not there. HMMM, business opportunity?

THe alignment shop knows what it's doing, they do lotus setups all the time. I can get my alignment specs. All I can remember off the top of my head is we lowered the car only by 5mm front and rear, since it's my daily driver....

[Zinhead]

Originally Posted by Chili Red

The Lotus is very sensitive to tire and alignment changes. Im guessing your problem is coming from 3 areas.

1. Tires - stick with something that is known to work. A046, R888, Hoosier or RA1. I know for a fact that some of the street tires can make the car feel wacky on track.

2. Alignment - Make sure your shop knows how to align a lotus. Even a VERY small change in toe can make the car feel horrible and scary to drive.

3. Suspension - Find out the settings that other people are running on their Suspension and use that as a starting point.

I think he hit the nail on the head here concerning tires. The Lotus is a light car without much power, so it is alot different than most other cars that tires are designed for. AO48 and R888 work well with these cars so why re-invent the wheel so to speak.

As for the Hancooks, I spoke with a Miata guy who ran their street tire and he complained about them constantly. Sometimes they hooked up well, other times he had to add pressure on them to make them work. Sometimes nothing he did made them work. They were just inconsistent which is not what you want with a track tire.

Do a quick search and you will find some recommendations for Ohlin settings. Your manual should have some as well.

[Chili Red]

Originally Posted by erics75218

is running 205 on the front and 225 on the rear an issue in regards to "grip balance" v.s. the old 195' fronts.

Yeah man I need to take notes...I was hoping to find some Iphone software lol, but it appears it's not there. HMMM, business opportunity?

THe alignment shop knows what it's doing, they do lotus setups all the time. I can get my alignment specs. All I can remember off the top of my head is we lowered the car only by 5mm front and rear, since it's my daily driver....

Find out what your toe settings are front and rear. To little toe will make the car feel really unstable, especially under braking and corner entry.

I dont think the 205/225 setup is the main part of your problem. You will shift a bit of grip towards the front of the car, but its not really that big of a difference and would probably just eliminate a little of the understeer. It may be more difficult for beginners to manage though.

[spf4000]

It doesn't help that you have spring/damper setup meant for R-compound tires. As others have mentioned, tires make all the difference. Running harder compounds, different sizes than stock setup, and the conditions of the tires will make the car feel completely different.

[erics75218]

SO since we can't get r888s anymore..>WHAT NOW!! :-D

Guys I REALLY appreciate this input.....track days sure are fun!

[cudacharlie]

Similar experiences...

2006 Elise, sport, touring, lsd. Bone stock. Came with A048s. Got a second set of wheels, Volk TE37's upsized a notch over stock, with Goodyear F1-GSD3s (all weather "supercar" tires).

First track day was at Willow Springs on A048s - same experience you had; I don't know how to drive AT ALL, so I went in beginner with a ride-along instructor, but the instructor was like, "you got this, let me out and I'll put you in intermediate next time out..." The car behaved perfectly, and I had not the balls (first time out) to find the exact limits of it, while being passed on the outside by the instructor, who was up on three wheels in a Saturn with a cage (I kid you not).

Second track day was at Laguna Seca, and I drove up on the Goodyears, with A048s in the chase car. At the end of the two-day session, I had already put the Goodyears back on, and the groups were getting thin, so I went out for one more run group.

Holy Jeezus the car was nearly undriveable. MASSIVE understeer under braking, and I nearly experienced the dreaded snap-oversteer on the corkscrew. While I was struggling to make a two-minute lap on A048s (I know, I suck...), the Goodyear setup added 8-10 seconds to my lap, and nearly added a hot steamer to my underwear.

After a few laps I couldn't take it anymore. Too sketchy. That said, the Goodyear setup is much smoother and quieter on the road, and exhibits a more gradual transition from grip to skid than the A048s, which seem to grip right until the moment they "let go" completely. The Goodyears lose grip in a more gradual fashion, so there is more of a "zone" than an "edge", if that makes sense. I KNOW that this has saved my lame butt on a couple of encounters with damp spots on early morning drives in the canyons... even though the car is not correctly set up for the Goodyears.

Ritchie at Silver Star always encouraged me to stick with the bone stock sport setup, and NOT pull my camber shims in an attempt to reduce understeer. He recommended that I use the inch-up Goodyears ONLY for cruising, and put the A048s back on before going solo in the canyons. I think he could tell that with my lack of experience a little understeer was the safest and most predictable approach. So far he's been right...

He reiterated to me that the whole sport setup is based around those tires and wheels, and once you swap them out, a lot of other things would need to be addressed before the car would handle as Lotus intended.

[Conan]

regarding tire compound: Remember different compounds have different release characteristics. Many compounds have a much faster and larger drop off after they break traction. Others are much more gradual. It could be the Hankooks aren't as gradual.

I'm sure it's more than one (or even two) things. IMO, the different tires, temp, tire size, and suspension all accumulated for a VERY loose setup for you. Any one of those by itself isn't a big deal, but combined would make for a huge change in behavior.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by erics75218

SO since we can't get r888s anymore..>WHAT NOW!! :-D

Go with a 15/16 set up.

[Zinhead]

Originally Posted by erics75218

SO since we can't get r888s anymore..>WHAT NOW!! :-D

Guys I REALLY appreciate this input.....track days sure are fun!

Get the stock Yoko's. They are very good tires.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by Zinhead

Get the stock Yoko$. They are very good tires.

Fixed that for you

[R'elise Me]

95F at SOW just overheats street tires. I never deliver fast times there on a hot day even on race rubber.

The real question is not whether you had as much traction traction as the 1st track day (cuz you couldn't), but how was the car's balance, turn in and other details of control. Those answers will determine if you alignment is off and how to correct it. Also can't comment about camber without understanding tire temps across the tread. So have someone drive it with more experience to determine those answers if you can't yourself. Come out and track with the LCS too. Lots to learn from the group and they're a great bunch.

You want to try to start with a good basic setting on the shocks. Having DA shocks gives you a lot of choices, but a lot of ways to effect the handling adversely. I love those shocks though, especially for Dot tires. In general though, I wouldn't attribute ACUTE handling flaws to the shock settings. Do you have LSD or an adjustable sway bar? Those make a huge difference in your settings.

There are several people that come to mind that have tracked on street rubber with very respectacle times and I think it's a good (foregiving) way for a newbie to learn the ropes so don't just right off the Hankooks (they are supposedly superb street/track tires). My guess is that you're experiencing a combination of bad alignment settings and a need to focus on your driving skills (like all of us). This car responds to both very eagerly. It's unique in its demands of the driving style too given the short WB and rear engine.

To get it dialed in, take it to The Lotus Propulsion Labratory / Allen Strommer 323-345-6292. He's very knowledgeable. I'm in Venice too if you want to connect.

[ZJChaser]

Originally Posted by erics75218

SO since we can't get r888s anymore..>WHAT NOW!! :-D

Guys I REALLY appreciate this input.....track days sure are fun!

I really dont understand what the huge issue is. Toyo got backed up on that size. They be shipping again in a few weeks.


but ya......street tires + high heat + unknown alignment setting = fail