Another example of why you need a HANS device

[davecarama]

I was instructing at H-Fest and was about 4 cars behind that little misshap. Glad I finally got to see what happened. It turns out it happened just as I had suspected. It was weird driving by and seeing the car that far off the track in the tires... pointing the wrong way... upside-down.

As for the flagging, They black flagged pretty quickly after that happened IIRC, so I think we passed it twice, once when it happened, and once under flag.

This guy was soloed for the event. The minor mistake he made would most likely not have happened with an instructor in the car AND it happened very early on the first day.

So, to everyone, instruction is good stuff. There truly is no person out there that can't learn a trick or two from someone. I like having passengers in my car for that reason, maybe they can tell me a trick or two that they use to get around the course.

OK, I am done preaching now...

PS, there were two Lotus cars driving at the event, I never did get to meet the other guy... Too bad

Dave

[Doghouse]

Glad to hear that the person involved was OK.

Am I the only one to notice that the ignition / electrical was still on when the driver was exiting?

IMHO, if you are in a crash, turn the electricals OFF. Fires start when you mix gasoline or oil with electricity or sparks caused by shorting wires.

Of all the things my Mom (Yes she drove SCCA and NHRA for years) told me to remember if I ever got the chance to drive on a track at speed, this one and stay in your car (unless there is fire or fluids) have always stuck in my brain as key survival skills.

Funny how those words of wisdom come back to haunt you as you get older.

[Mr. Know]

Basically the 240SX driver was experiencing understeer (or got nervous), lifted his foot almost completely off the throttle, the front tires got sudden grip due to weight transfer, and he went for a wild ride. This correct?

[powerbookguy]

Originally Posted by SteveLevin

When it comes to being on the track, it's easy to forget how fast in real time things happen, and that often you just do the wrong thing. Or even just slightly "less than ideal." Here's an example of something that happened to me this past weekend:



A more experienced driver looked at the video and said "you were doomed as soon as you made the first correction. You should have just tried to go off and get the car slowed down from that point" (rather than try and catch it).

Steve

i agree 1000%. it all happens so fast even if it looks slo-mo in a video.

i've been close to going off in that corner a few times. thanks for doing it for me! just kidding, coming down the hill there is my favorite part of the track.

watching the video and especially your hands on the wheel during the attempted save (i am not criticizing btw -- great try) i can understand the more experienced driver's point, especially since the runoff area is really not that great and it is almost never graded smooth.

[rnr]

Originally Posted by davecarama

As for the flagging, They black flagged pretty quickly after that happened IIRC, so I think we passed it twice, once when it happened, and once under flag.

If you passed the spot twice then they definitely didnt flag it quickly enough. I dont know what track it is but even assuming a 1.30 second lap it means it would have been at least 5 min before safety vehicles would even enter the track. I'd expect them to red flag the course the second a car flips.

[RichS]

Originally Posted by davecarama

As for the flagging, They black flagged pretty quickly after that happened IIRC, so I think we passed it twice, once when it happened, and once under flag.

Wow. That's the first time I've ever heard of a black flag for an upside down car. What would the corner workers need to throw a red flag?

Why did folks stay out on the track when there was an upside down car on the track? Was this accident just before the pit entrance so you drove past it at speed the first time and then the second time was as you are pitting? That's really the only way I could ever see it be reasonable to drive by an upside down car on the track. As soon as I see an upside down car on a track, I'm pitting. No matter what the flags are.

[davecarama]

Originally Posted by rnr

If you passed the spot twice then they definitely didnt flag it quickly enough. I dont know what track it is but even assuming a 1.30 second lap it means it would have been at least 5 min before safety vehicles would even enter the track. I'd expect them to red flag the course the second a car flips.

Yellow instantly, white instantly. We do hot pulls with NASA. White flag signals there is an emergency vehicle on course.

Summit Point Raceway in WV, yes, 1:30 is a good time for the better driven Miata guys.

I was expecting a red flag too, but I guess they decided the driver and the rest of the course were not in danger. Ya never know what is going on over the radios while you are driving.

[rnr]

Originally Posted by RichS

Why did folks stay out on the track when there was an upside down car on the track? Was this accident just before the pit entrance so you drove past it at speed the first time and then the second time was as you are pitting?

The OP mentioned that this was at "Turn 4" so unless this is a 5 corner course there is no way the stewards should have let them circulate around again.

If I ever flip a car I certainly hope the stewards have the sense to red flag immediately - its not like HPDE drivers need every last second of track time.

[davecarama]

Originally Posted by RichS

Wow. That's the first time I've ever heard of a black flag for an upside down car. What would the corner workers need to throw a red flag?

Why did folks stay out on the track when there was an upside down car on the track? Was this accident just before the pit entrance so you drove past it at speed the first time and then the second time was as you are pitting? That's really the only way I could ever see it be reasonable to drive by an upside down car on the track. As soon as I see an upside down car on a track, I'm pitting. No matter what the flags are.

We do hot pulls with NASA. I guess they didn't feel the driver and the rest of the course were in too much danger. Again, the flagging group and staff are top notch, so I can't speak for them as to why they chose a black over a red, but I am sure they had a good reason.

The accident happened in between turns 4 and 5 of a 10 turn course. Noone ever drove past at speed, they threw yellows and whites almost immediately. And the car was WAYYYY off track.

The second time we went by (under black flag) the emergency vehicles were already at the scene and working on righting the car (pretty fast acting in my opinion).

Lots of clubs have lots of different rules and practices for track events. Some allow pass anywhere with a point by, some allow only passes in the straights with a point by, and some do hot pulls when there is a stuck car, some end the session imedietly if a car is stuck off the track. Neither way is right or wrong. All drivers performed perfectly and responsibly while this was happening. Wish you could have seen how organized it was, you would have a different oppinion.

Dave

[davecarama]

Originally Posted by rnr

The OP mentioned that this was at "Turn 4" so unless this is a 5 corner course there is no way the stewards should have let them circulate around again.

If I ever flip a car I certainly hope the stewards have the sense to red flag immediately - its not like HPDE drivers need every last second of track time.

I think you all are overreacting a little bit. It was certainly not as bad as the in car video appears to be. The driver got out and away very quickly and the track was clear and running again in about 5-10 minutes time. That included the roll, clearing the session by getting the drivers off course, righting the car and removing it.

Had the driver stayed in the car, I am certain it would have been red flagged.

[RichS]

Dave, it sounds like they did the right thing. If you were an instructor and you were not upset about the performance of the corner workers then I'm sure it was O.K. When you are not there and just hear about it on a forum you tend to see CAR UPSIDE DOWN and NO RED FLAG (or white, or whatever).

[fishguy]

I support Davecarama in this thread,
what i am reading is another example of why i didnt like HPDE at all.
I had a good deal of racing experience on 2 wheels before i got into four wheeling on the track. IMO, in HPDE ~%75 of the drivers DO NOT UNDERSTAND the flags and what they mean(which was why I got out of HPDE quickly and into the race group), and they should be tested on this stuff, or reminded everytime before they go out ontrack at an event.

here is the way i was taught, and when i help at the SCCA school, this is what I repeat to the racing student(at SCCA schools, we dont teach how to drive, we teach the rules of the racetrack);

there are 2 types of flags
1)information flags
2)command flags

how about instead of me telling which is which, you (HPDE)guys think about it and answer(or not, as long as you think about it).

I would say that you need to follow the instructions given by the flaggers. they are being told what to do by the control center.

when you start deciding things, like I am exiting the track.......... you might just be getting in the way of the emergency crews.

DO WHATEVER THE FLAGGERS INSTRUCT YOU TO DO!

if they are keeping you circulating on the track, there is likely a reason for it.
in an emergency, if they COMMAND you to exit the track, or stop on track, then do so.

second guess them after the session ends and in the pits, dont make up your own rules. for all you know the safety crew is going to come out onto the track somewhere in a way you didnt expect, and your coming into the pits (and maybe the entire field following your move from confusion) will only make things worse for the guy on track who needs help9it could be you).

I race with different clubs who have different rules. NEVER BE AFRAID TO ASK, WHAT ARE THE PROCEEDURES WHEN ___________ HAPPENS.
who cares if others think you are asking dumb questions, i bet more than just you could use the review. i often ask even when i know the answer just so its brought up, and we are all on the same page.

example: one club i raced with said pass on a waving yellow after you pass the incident, the other club says pass after the next flag station that does not have a command flag displayed(maybe there is more than 1 incident on the track).

I would like to see how many HPDE guys really know which flags are command flags, and which are informational flags.
I see guys doing really dumb things at times, its usually not because they are dumb, but because they dont obey the flags.
Fishguy

[JonOrangeElise]

Originally Posted by fishguy

I would like to see how many HPDE guys really know which flags are command flags, and which are informational flags.
I see guys doing really dumb things at times, its usually not because they are dumb, but because they dont obey the flags.
Fishguy

Instead of asking folks to explain the difference between "command" and "informational" flags, the more appropriate challenge, I think, is, "Explain what every flag means, and how you must react, and spare no detail." I write this because in the many HPDE events I've run, and in the seven days of racing schools I've run, flags have never been described as "command" and "informational" -- at least not in terms of, "There are two types of flags, command and informational, and now we'll explain which is which."

Yet at every event I've been in, the flags have been explained in depth, including which flags entail mandatory responses from the driver, and which flags are more aptly described as "alerts." And I would hazard to guess that about 95 percent of all guys running in the equivalent of advanced-intermediate and advanced HPDE know the flags very well. (At least in the case of the Northern California groups that I happen to run with.)

Obviously, we all have different experiences, but I would say that in my experience, understanding and obeying flags has not been the main problem with on-track dumbassery. The bigger issue concerns people who drive above their talent thresholds, and don't really understand the concept that their actions on track can have profound effects on those around them.

[davecarama]

Originally Posted by JonOrangeElise

Instead of asking folks to explain the difference between "command" and "informational" flags, the more appropriate challenge, I think, is, "Explain what every flag means, and how you must react, and spare no detail." I write this because in the many HPDE events I've run, and in the seven days of racing schools I've run, flags have never been described as "command" and "informational" -- at least not in terms of, "There are two types of flags, command and informational, and now we'll explain which is which."

Yeah, now that I recall, we had JUST gotten by the pit when the black flag was thrown... and the guys in front of us almost came to a stop

Group 1 and group 2 can be scary sometimes! That is what the in car instructors are for. We basically play playstation from the passenger seat. Break, turn, touch the curb, track out, more gas, shift, break, that's enough break, downshift, turn in, back on the gas, hit the curb, more gas, more more more, good, track out right, drift over to the left, stay out wide, OK now turn in, hit that curb, gas gas gas, good, see that turkey? don't look at it, good... When the driver gets better and starts hitting their marks, I start being quieter. You would be surprised how many students like that much feedback.

[RichS]

Originally Posted by davecarama

Yeah, now that I recall, we had JUST gotten by the pit when the black flag was thrown...

And now it all makes sense.

[fishguy]

Jon, the reason I wrote the 2 types of flags are command and informational flags is that was a great way it was explained to me , and so i pass it along verbatum.
the difference is, a command flag is just that...........it commands you to do something, such as a black flag, yellow flag(waving, stationary, double), red flag, meat ball flag.
informational flags are just that, they give the drivers on course information, and are open to interpretation for the driver. flags like, the surface hazzard flag(its a warning, not a comand to do something in an action), the blue/with yellow, informs of a faster car coming, but is not a command to let it pass, just check your mirros and beware, though i will allow the pass when i see that flag.
this way it makes it easy for drivers to understand that there are actions that are associated with some flags, and track awareness that are associated with others.

I do admit to not doing HPDE very long. I had racing experience prior to getting into cars, and it was really boring just mindlessly driving around on the track and not racing(for me). NASA out here is very good with their program, another grassroots local club who i wont name out of respect for the owner, (not SCCA), is just horrible.
they are racing in HPDE, I offered to instruct , but when i saw what was going on out on the track, never made myself available........no way was it safe.

[JonOrangeElise]

Originally Posted by fishguy

Jon, the reason I wrote the 2 types of flags are command and informational flags is that was a great way it was explained to me , and so i pass it along verbatum.
the difference is, a command flag is just that...........it commands you to do something, such as a black flag, yellow flag(waving, stationary, double), red flag, meat ball flag.
informational flags are just that, they give the drivers on course information, and are open to interpretation for the driver. flags like, the surface hazzard flag(its a warning, not a comand to do something in an action), the blue/with yellow, informs of a faster car coming, but is not a command to let it pass, just check your mirros and beware, though i will allow the pass when i see that flag.
this way it makes it easy for drivers to understand that there are actions that are associated with some flags, and track awareness that are associated with others.

I do admit to not doing HPDE very long. I had racing experience prior to getting into cars, and it was really boring just mindlessly driving around on the track and not racing(for me). NASA out here is very good with their program, another grassroots local club who i wont name out of respect for the owner, (not SCCA), is just horrible.
they are racing in HPDE, I offered to instruct , but when i saw what was going on out on the track, never made myself available........no way was it safe.

The good news? The good news is that you and I have the exact same opinion of which specific flags are command flags and which are informational!

Actually, to say we have the same "opinion" is probably a poor choice of words. The flags should not be open to interpretation. They all describe something very specific, and no one should really have an "opinion" of what they mean.

Hey, can I ask where you're located, i.e., which tracks you run on, or who you ran HPDE with? I'm wondering if my Northern California experience is an anamoly. I have four tracks within 3.5 hours of myself, and it's possible that my region simply has a more "mature" approach to HPDE because our track culture is bigger and longer-lived. And by mature I mean that the NorCal region might have more institutional knowledge passed along from advanced driver to newbie, from longstanding event organizers to new organziers, from veteran corner worker to newbie corner worker, etc.

Also, if we're talking about the newbie run groups, then, yeah, I'm sure they're missing flag commands left and right!

As for NASA...

Ironically, the NorCal NASA HPDE program developed a bad reputation for dumbassism over the years, and only in the last few years has it seemed to improve. I have never run with norcal NASA because of the horror stories, but as I query others about NASA, the old-timers say things are better... notwithstanding the carnage at Sears Point last weekend.

At any rate, I am wondering if the fact that NASA HPDE "feeds" directly into NASA racing causes some particular problems. (For those who don't know, NASA HPDE and racing are held together on the same day, and there is an institutionalized matriculation from the newbie HPDE group to the racing group.)

On one side, I would imagine that NASA HPDErs are acutely aware of what the flags mean, right from their beginning group experiences. Why? Because the flags are so incredibly fundemental to racing safety -- as well as racing policies and penalties.

On the other side, NASA group 4 has the reputation for being a defacto race group, and when those guys run the equivalent of Group 4 in non-NASA, non-racing events, they might emerge as the worst offenders in terms of aggression/driving-over-one's-head/bad HPDE etiquette.

[MyElise]

The Chute at Summit is one of the best turns but easily the one where you can get into the most trouble as a newbie. This guy made it most of the way through it but panicked and did a hard lift. Big mistake here. It becomes obvious after a few tries that if you get in trouble you get the car straight and begin braking quickly. If you can't, you get it straight. even if its on the grass, and drive through the gate at the bottom of the hill. Much easier to do in a DE than in a race with two or sometimes three cars entering turn 5 together. I can't think of many places on any track where I would lift rather than drive my way out of a problem.

As for NASA mid-Atlantic, it is without a doubt the best organization I ever did DE's with. This is the only group in the East who allows DE participants in the upper groups to prepare for door to door encounters. Hot pulls (no blackflags for every schmuck who can't keep his car on the track) and pass anywhere with a point makes their "less than most" track time worth much more. And the organization is a machine. It runs on time and efficiently. That said, I agree with Jon that there are a few too many not ready for prime time players in group 4. Lots of cold tire offs, hard lifts and other incidents not worthy of the group in my experience.

[davecarama]

tee hee hee
group 4 is the instructor only group.

I pray you mean group 3.

[MyElise]

Originally Posted by davecarama

I pray you mean group 3.

Yea, them too.