Back from Infineon 10-24-09 with NASA TT

[robains]

It was another successfull track day with my Lotus -- I'm even feeling confident in the car now.

I was running NASA TTU class just to avoid any "issues", car is good for TTS class. Big thanks to Kevin Smith and crew for keeping TT well organized. It was a crowded event, 58 cars in my run group (TT). So finding a clear lap was close to impossible, but I managed to get a couple of 1:50's but I'm pretty sure 1:49's are there.

As you can see from pics, it's definitely time to step up from the stock shocks/springs to a better setup like the Nitron GT3 or Ohlins. Stock springs are just WAY too soft and progressive rate springs just doesn't feel good on a track. My 15 month old Hoosiers R compounds aren't feeling so good any more, but I'll step up to fresh A compounds when I move to better shocks/springs.

Great event, no failures, so I'm happy.

Attached some pics, full session video to follow tonight:

Rob

[Tracktimeplz]

WTF is that a yugo in that last pic?

[turbophil]

I thought the top LCS guys were running like 1:51s or something similar with a clear track at infineon the other day???? Were you doing 1:5 Ohhs on 15mo old tires, crap suspension, and traffic?

If that's right, then not too shabby sir!

[robains]

I believe it was a civic hatchback - like I said 58 cars in my run group. If you are familiar with NASA's TT classes, there are many.

I did get some good video of a Nissan GT-R blowing my doors off -- Brian Lock. He was running in TTU class also, but runing 1:42's. It was a very nice GT-R, 556 wHP 3400 lbs sponsored on slicks (with tire warmers I might add) -- took a lot of pics of it, I'll post later.

Rob

[apk919]

Originally Posted by robains

It was another successfull track day with my Lotus -- I'm even feeling confident in the car now.

I was running NASA TTU class just to avoid any "issues", car is good for TTS class. Big thanks to Kevin Smith and crew for keeping TT well organized. It was a crowded event, 58 cars in my run group (TT). So finding a clear lap was close to impossible, but I managed to get a couple of 1:50's but I'm pretty sure 1:49's are there.

...
Rob

Great stuff Rob!

Originally Posted by turbophil

I thought the top LCS guys were running like 1:51s or something similar with a clear track at infineon the other day???? Were you doing 1:5 Ohhs on 15mo old tires, crap suspension, and traffic?

If that's right, then not too shabby sir!

I don't know how Rob's car would be classed in the LCS... Hoosiers would not be allowed in FI, and I don't know what his engine dynos... if it's over 245WHP he'd have to be in Cup.

The Cup guys were running 1:47s, 1:48s in the w2w race on Yoko slicks.

My best was a 1:54.2 on Yoko A048s... but that was only after a day and a half at the track...

[robains]

1:47's and 1:48's sounds about right for a cup car on slicks -- only video I saw of the W2W race and times were 1:51's. I don't have any experience with Yoko slicks, pretty sure they'll not work well with my stock shocks/springs -- I have heard lots of good info/data on A compound Hoosiers. The R compound Hoosiers have a little more grip than the A048's (but the R compound Hoosiers seem to last forever, much longer than the A048s).

TVS SC and Nitron GT3 or Ohlin shocks/springs and A compound Hoosiers and I would expect to see a 4-5 second improvement (get me down to 45's 46's) -- still not enough to go head to head the Brian's GT-R, but getting closer. To put in a realistic battle with Brian's GT-R, I'd need to go with wider than stock tire size (probably slicks) and dump the stock brakes, best possible shocks/springs I can find, and find a lot more power than 250 wHP (more like 300 wHP).

I'm hoping Phil's TVS SC setup with IC support and up the pistons from 9:1 to 10.5 might get me closer to 42's, but gotta be careful about the tranny. Brian's GT-R is full sequential setup with paddle shifters and my Lotus is A LOT of work going thru the gears and none of them seem optimal for Infineon. I'd also need to do some weight trimming to get my car down from 1915 lbs to closer to 1700 lbs (figure remove AC, door insides, door windows, passenger seat/harness, smog EVAC, stereo and speakers and few other items) -- but I'm not really sure I want to go that far ... yet

It was a fun day, only did the Sat (4 sessions), had other commitments for Sunday. If I'd done Sunday, I probably could have found that 1:49 and less cars on track.

Rob.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by apk919

... if it's over 245WHP he'd have to be in Cup.

Based upon the current 2009 Rules -- over 244 RWHP puts you in Ultra. I believe the HP limit for Cup is going up to 260 for 2010.

Hoosiers are classed as "slicks" not as R-compounds (DOT rating notwithstanding)

[robains]

Here's AMB times for Session 4 which I was again bogged with traffic and it was at 5:05pm so I literally could NOT see Turn 2 at all due to the suns position.


Session 4
MYLAPS

Session 3
MYLAPS

If I were in LCS Ultra, I'd definitely run A compound Hoosiers, lot more grip than R compound Hoosiers -- but either way, gotta upgrade the shocks/springs to really utilize either R or A compound. I can ride the car lower with stiffer springs and actually get that aero to work for me rather than 2 feet off the ground.

I know you guys want a minimum 5 event commitment for LCS, which is difficult for me. My event signups are usually last minute -- this thing called work keeps getting in my way.

A little heat soak and I'm sure I'd be at or below 244 wHP

Rob

[Jack]

Originally Posted by robains

I know you guys want a minimum 5 event commitment for LCS, which is difficult for me. My event signups are usually last minute -- this thing called work keeps getting in my way.
Rob

I believe that you can do less than 5 events, especially for your introductory year. Just be careful, it may become habit-forming.

A6's are stickier than R6's -- try the Yoko's -- I think that you'll like them even more but for the price.

Under the current rules framework, any FI car (stock Exige S or modified one with aero/suspension, etc) with non-approved R-compound tires competes in Cup class, as long as RWHP is at 244 or below.

[robains]

I did look into the Yoko's -- $333 a pop. For a real racing slick, that's actually not that bad of a price. I agree, I should try them so I can at least have some reference/experience with them.

But now, I'm finding more reliability in the car, I certainly might do a few LCS events next year.

[robains]

As promised, my session 3 video footage:

video link session 3

Rob

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by apk919

Great stuff Rob!



I don't know how Rob's car would be classed in the LCS... Hoosiers would not be allowed in FI, and I don't know what his engine dynos... if it's over 245WHP he'd have to be in Cup.

The Cup guys were running 1:47s, 1:48s in the w2w race on Yoko slicks.

My best was a 1:54.2 on Yoko A048s... but that was only after a day and a half at the track...

Speaking of Infineon lap times, just for a talking point since it's not a Lotus, a friend of mine was at the track the day after the LCS event, driving a new 997 C4S Cab with PDK, on old RA-1s, otherwise bone stock. It was cool and foggy all day, no heat in the track at all. I was amazed at his time in the PCA time trial competition: 1:50.4. Just blew me away.

Gary

[robains]

Yeah, there was a guy in a Z06 (blue) running in TTA!! Not sure how a Z06 on Hoosiers is classified in TTA, but from what I understand that's all he's done -- his car didn't roll much so I'm guessing he must have increased spring rates also. He was fast (low 50's) but could only do about 2 hot laps before he ran into car issues (either brakes or overheating diff/tranny) then I'd start to catch him up.

But that seems to be how a lot of TT drivers are approaching the classification, setup the car (minimal modifications) knowing it's good for maybe 2 hot laps. It's an interesting approach to TT, something I hadn't thought about.

Here is YouTube version (shorten) of Session 3:

YouTube - Infineon 10-24-09 Session 3 - Lotus Exige S

Rob

[robains]

Part 2 of my youtube footage:

YouTube - Infineon 10-24-09 Session 3 - Lotus Exige S Part 2

More to come later.

Rob.

[R'elise Me]

Looking real good. I learned a few things watching your vids. With better springs you'll crack 149 for sure. That track hates soft springs. Even my Nitron SA Sports felt soft in the high speed transitions. LCS this month was the 1st time at Infineon for me. What an incredibly challenging track. It's so easy to lose a second+ with the slightest errors on a number of those turns.

I notices you started off tight on T7 (hairpin) and after a couple laps started using a wider line. Is that the line you like or were your tires beating you up for late braking that turn? I couldn't really make the call on which line is better.

T6 was the other head scratcher for me - inside or middle line before you get to the apex curb?

T12 - go real tight to the tires all the way through or just at the apex?

Enigmatic track for sure. I was only able to hit 1:50.00 on my race laps on Yoko slicks and RYan was able to do 1-2 sec better on same - both NA cars but light - 1750 lbs. I'm pretty sure that with a few fundred laps there a well prepped Lotus with a good driver could squeeze a 1:44-5. 1:42 seems lofty - but we've said that about a couple tracks and found we tend to underestimate ourselves.

BTW - watch that AF guage. Get's pretty low on hard acceleration. Hate to see you melt the motor. It sure wouldn't be the 1st time.

[spf4000]

Going into turn 1, I noticed that pros at the Jim Russel school tend to go out further to the outside berms. Then, they use the compression they get from going up the slope to load up their front tire to help them rotate the car up the hill, setting them up for a straight braking line up the hill just before the turn in point for 2.

As for turn 7, the pros seem to use a tighter double apex line over a single late apex, doing more of a V line.

The pros are really aggressive on turn 9/10 as well, which I have trouble replicating (I have neither the skills or balls to do four wheel drifts on those turns like they do).

[robains]

I've been going over my telemetry and setting short sector points -- I was using different lines in T2, T6, T7, and even T11 most of the day. About the only significantly "better" (sector time) was when I stayed more left on my entry to T2 using outside entry curb and angle a late apex -- seemed to minimize the off camber. T6 didn't seem to matter if I kept it tight or entered in the middle -- saw a slightly better sector when I went into T6 real late on the brakes and pitch the car towards late apex (think thats in my Session 4 video). For me, T2 entry was by far the most difficult, the bumps and two down shifts while turning and braking made for some less than desirable lines -- toss in end of day session 4 where I couldn't see T2 only sun (even with my tinted visor down) actually put some fear in me - which for the most part I'm Spock like when on track.

Again with T7, the sector times didn't really show any significant difference keeping it tight or keeping my momentum and running a wide arc -- on the entry it seems faster but the exit is slower -- the other the entry is slower but exit is faster.

T11 paint by the tires had NO grip at all, so I kept clear of it. Maybe there is a faster way thru T11, but I just never found it.

T10 is just balls, had I run a 2nd day I think I would have found them. I did try 4th and 5th thru T10, I actually prefered 5th but again sector times didn't show much of a difference and since 5th required a drop 2nd, I stuck with 4th thru T10.

I was on my way to 49's on my last session, but once again got bogged with Traffic -- had a really good first sector, down 4/10th's, ugh, but not to be.

It's a great track, very technical, very demanding, big balls, and mistakes can be serious.

Hadn't noticed any AFR issues? 11.5-11.7 at WOT is about what I want for FI. Did you have any specific points in the video where you saw AFR as being too low?

Rob

[jim-clayton]

Thanks for posting the video's.

Stock shocks? You have no idea what your missing. I got the least expensive Nitrons and it was a big difference.

Loosen up that wallet already! The US economy needs your upgrade dollars.

[dmh]

I have 1, maybe 2, Nitron GT3 triples that I took in on a damper trade that I may consider for sale. If you run on billiard table smooth tracks, do not curb hop, and do not run in the rain these may be of interest to you. (They have a very short stroke and the valving is quite stout.) If so, email me your bid.

[robains]

Originally Posted by dmh

I have 1, maybe 2, Nitron GT3 triples that I took in on a damper trade that I may consider for sale. If you run on billiard table smooth tracks, do not curb hop, and do not run in the rain these may be of interest to you. (They have a very short stroke and the valving is quite stout.) If so, email me your bid.

Interesting on the Nitron GT3 -- I heard reports they were "perfect" and could make a curb "disappear" -- sounds like your experience is the opposite. Weren't the Nitron GT3's supposed to be valved per a professional driver? Craig Stanton??

Jim,

TVS is next and then some better shocks/springs. After that, I just wanna drive the car A LOT and get more comfortable with how it works. Some day I'll upgrade the stock brakes but that's low on my priority list.

Heard some rumors about better tranny pieces coming out for that Matrix unit -- which would then open up the possibility of a stroker motor, gonna need some power if I want to hit 1:42's @ Infineon -- not having to drop to 2nd gear would be nice

Then I'd probably add a cage ... yada yada yada (all down the wallet hill)

Rob