Big Willow with SpeedVentures, Feb. 8 2009 - Page 2 - LotusTalk

plastique999 · 02-09-2009, 06:51 PM

Yes, Willow eats your left tires...
Guys this is how bad my left rear was after the 3rd session:

Right tire:

And this is how it looked when I got home...:

I know...lucky to get home....I will now have a set of street wheels and track wheels...Volks to come!

apk919 · 02-09-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastique999

And this is how it looked when I got home...:

I know...lucky to get home....I will now have a set of street wheels and track wheels...Volks to come!

Corded? What cords????

Iman · 02-09-2009, 07:51 PM

I think they make a patch kit for that.

plastique999 · 02-09-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iman

I think they make a patch kit for that.

... kind of like it'll buff right out.

kaz · 02-09-2009, 08:34 PM

duct tape can fix anything

plastique999 · 02-09-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaz

duct tape can fix anything

I was thinking of that or zip ties...

kaz · 02-09-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastique999

I know...lucky to get home....I will now have a set of street wheels and track wheels...Volks to come!

Which ones did you get??

apk919 · 02-09-2009, 09:44 PM

Analyzing the parameters of "Omega" at Big Willow... two laps from two different sessions...

EDIT: Annotated graph with track info...

plastique999 · 02-09-2009, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaz

Which ones did you get??

Well, i want to get the CE28's in bronze...but we'll see.

Andy, interesting data....what explains the dip in the red graph on the RPM's...is that a shift?
Are the longitudinal g's considered acceleration and braking?

What is the circular graph in the lower right hand corner showing?

apk919 · 02-09-2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastique999

Well, i want to get the CE28's in bronze...but we'll see.

Andy, interesting data....what explains the dip in the red graph on the RPM's...is that a shift?
Are the longitudinal g's considered acceleration and braking?

What is the circular graph in the lower right hand corner showing?

The dip is bad data... the unit is trying to determine engine RPM from ignition noise on the 12V supply, and occasionally loses the signal.

Yes, longitudinal g's are acceleration and braking.

The circular graph is a "G circle"... it shows the path of G forces in two dimensions, so that you can more clearly see transitions from braking to turning to acceleration. The closer you stay to the outside of the circle, the closer you are to using the maximum grip of the tires. There's a mode where you can "play back" the data, and you can watch the path of G forces wander through the G circle.

EDIT: See annotated graphic for more detail...

SKYVUE · 02-10-2009, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack

BTW, Craig turned a 1:30.04 in Carl's normally aspirated Elise at Big Willow -- 160 rwhp vs 320 rwhp.

I've got the car, now I just have to live up to the expectations!

(I probably won't, but I'm having fun trying!)

Carl's old Elise is enjoying a second life, taking it easy at a slower pace and giving it's second owners (Terry and I) a fantastic ride on the road of life...on the track or in the canyons!

--Hal

P.S. Andy, Eddie, Peter, Jack and others: you're living your own dreams! I hope you're enjoying it like I am. The pics here show that you are definitely having a BLAST! Be safe......

kaz · 02-10-2009, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apk919

Analyzing the parameters of "Omega" at Big Willow... two laps from two different sessions...

EDIT: Annotated graph with track info...

awesome Andy - of the one time I have driven the track, the toughest part for me was knowing how much to lift on that double apex in turn 4. We're always taught to "never lift" but just from sitting with Craig he lifts there to hit the second apex...just a hard judgment call after charging up the hill under full load I was always worried the car would get too light during a minor lift to finish the turn.

apk919 · 02-10-2009, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaz

awesome Andy - of the one time I have driven the track, the toughest part for me was knowing how much to lift on that double apex in turn 4. We're always taught to "never lift" but just from sitting with Craig he lifts there to hit the second apex...just a hard judgment call after charging up the hill under full load I was always worried the car would get too light during a minor lift to finish the turn.

Thanks Peter! I'm not sure the "red" lap I have in the comparison is my best run through Omega, but it is a full second faster (just through 3/4/5) than the "black" lap. I remember one lap pushing hard through the first apex, then lifting fairly quickly and getting a nice rotation toward the second apex... it felt great (and fast), but I needed more practice to do it consistently.

SKYVUE · 02-10-2009, 08:48 AM

Fantastic (and fascinating) data, Andy!

As to Craig's video in Franks modified Elise, it does show that he is fighting the steering all the way. Jack: thanks for the insight.

Damn, now I'm fired up for a track day. When's the next? SOW, Big Willow or BW?

--Hal

plastique999 · 02-10-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaz

awesome Andy - of the one time I have driven the track, the toughest part for me was knowing how much to lift on that double apex in turn 4. We're always taught to "never lift" but just from sitting with Craig he lifts there to hit the second apex...just a hard judgment call after charging up the hill under full load I was always worried the car would get too light during a minor lift to finish the turn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by apk919

Thanks Peter! I'm not sure the "red" lap I have in the comparison is my best run through Omega, but it is a full second faster (just through 3/4/5) than the "black" lap. I remember one lap pushing hard through the first apex, then lifting fairly quickly and getting a nice rotation toward the second apex... it felt great (and fast), but I needed more practice to do it consistently.

Yea the lift/rotate in T4 is a tricky one....I couldn't really get the right amount of pitch with my rear tires sliding

apk919 · 02-10-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SKYVUE

Fantastic (and fascinating) data, Andy!

As to Craig's video in Franks modified Elise, it does show that he is fighting the steering all the way. Jack: thanks for the insight.

Damn, now I'm fired up for a track day. When's the next? SOW, Big Willow or BW?

--Hal

Thanks Hal! As a data geek I'm trying to get everything I can from track days, even after they're over. For my next track day, I'll have data acquisition for OBD-II parameters, including accelerator position, engine load, intake air temperature, along with accurate speed and RPM.

I'm glad you're getting fired up! I'm not sure what my next track day will be, but stayed tuned and I'm sure you'll see what everyone else is up to...

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastique999

Yea the lift/rotate in T4 is a tricky one....I couldn't really get the right amount of pitch with my rear tires sliding

Maybe it was the lack of rubber on your left rear tire?

plastique999 · 02-10-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apk919

The dip is bad data... the unit is trying to determine engine RPM from ignition noise on the 12V supply, and occasionally loses the signal.

Yes, longitudinal g's are acceleration and braking.

The circular graph is a "G circle"... it shows the path of G forces in two dimensions, so that you can more clearly see transitions from braking to turning to acceleration. The closer you stay to the outside of the circle, the closer you are to using the maximum grip of the tires. There's a mode where you can "play back" the data, and you can watch the path of G forces wander through the G circle.

EDIT: See annotated graphic for more detail...

Thanks for the annotations...very helpful!

Can you explain the circular graph regarding the flatness of the top of the circle going from 0.4 to 0.2 along the x axis? ....

plastique999 · 02-10-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaz

repost, but here's Craig driving with a little more gusto in Frank's Elise when he had the supercharger - I was hoping his car was ready for Jack's day, would surely have beaten the Lotus record at the track with Craig driving it again. I think he does like 1:27? 26? in this session...

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Wow, that's some amazing driving!....He is sooo smooth!
His lines are pretty tight too.

apk919 · 02-10-2009, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastique999

Thanks for the annotations...very helpful!

Can you explain the circular graph regarding the flatness of the top of the circle going from 0.4 to 0.2 along the x axis? ....

Yes, the flatness is the limit of the Lotus' acceleration in 3rd gear... in a lower gear (or with more torque), the acceleration limit would be higher. The unit was slightly skewed (right side pushed forward, due to me pressing the buttons too hard

)... ideally that line should be symmetrically flat from side to side. Imagine powering out of the apex of a corner... you go from maximum lateral Gs to maximum acceleration Gs as you unwind the steering and go to max throttle. If your car cannot exceed the tires' grip from pure acceleration, you can basically use the rest of the grip for turning... so the graph would be flat from the center outward to the radius that equalled the tires' maximum grip.

plastique999 · 02-10-2009, 02:21 PM

o.k....now makes sense.
and how about the squiggly lines on the right where the 2 dots are compared to the smooth curve on the left - is that right and left hand turns/g's?

02-09-2009, 06:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
plastique999 Form and Function Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alta Loma, CA Posts: 3,045	Yes, Willow eats your left tires... Guys this is how bad my left rear was after the 3rd session: Right tire: And this is how it looked when I got home...: I know...lucky to get home....I will now have a set of street wheels and track wheels...Volks to come! __________________ www.FaceNBody.com 2005 Lotus Elise: 2bular decat\GT3 exhaust,HID's,turn signal&rear fins delete, CFside scoops, CFbinnacle,CFcenter console,Zoom CF mirror,APR Aero kit,CF 5-elem. diffuser,Exige mesh,Ohlins DA,RTD brace,RAC 'lites,Toyo R888's,HawkHT10's,CO painted calipers,SS lines,Reverie XC CF seat,Reverie CF steering wheel,Schroth Profi II 6 pt harness,shifter re-Enforcer,Manly mounts, Accusump,Moroso pan,BWR key to BWR S/C! Spec Racer Ford #237 Last edited by plastique999 : 02-10-2009 at 09:16 AM.

02-09-2009, 07:51 PM	#23 (permalink)
Iman Registered User Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: So Cal Posts: 326	I think they make a patch kit for that. __________________ 2007 Exige S: Solar Yellow. Lotus Challenge Series #101 2009 Nissan GT-R: (Sold) 2007 International 8600: 450HP/1500TQ Tow vehicle 2008 Benz S550

02-09-2009, 08:34 PM	#25 (permalink)
kaz JabStrongFierce Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Downtown LA + SF Posts: 2,420	duct tape can fix anything __________________ 2006 Elise : JFG \| Nitrons \| 2bular 8" Single \| Reverie diffuser and misc. carbon bits \| Tripoint Engineering W/A Intercooler \| Ronin supercharger \| DRS EFI and tuning

02-09-2009, 09:44 PM	#28 (permalink)
apk919 User Restricted By ΑDMIΝ Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Limbo Posts: 6,281 Images: 20	Analyzing the parameters of "Omega" at Big Willow... two laps from two different sessions... EDIT: Annotated graph with track info... Attached Images __________________ * 2009 Lotus Challenge Series Rookie Of The Year * (Thanks Jim, Tom, Jack, Rob & Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch!) My videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/apk919 Last edited by apk919 : 02-09-2009 at 11:32 PM.

02-10-2009, 08:48 AM	#34 (permalink)
SKYVUE SKYVUE Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Posts: 2,132 Images: 1	Fantastic (and fascinating) data, Andy! As to Craig's video in Franks modified Elise, it does show that he is fighting the steering all the way. Jack: thanks for the insight. Damn, now I'm fired up for a track day. When's the next? SOW, Big Willow or BW? --Hal __________________ --SKYVUE Resident Astronomer '05 Saffron Elise,SOLD! '07 CaymanS

02-10-2009, 02:21 PM	#40 (permalink)
plastique999 Form and Function Join Date: May 2008 Location: Alta Loma, CA Posts: 3,045	o.k....now makes sense. and how about the squiggly lines on the right where the 2 dots are compared to the smooth curve on the left - is that right and left hand turns/g's? __________________ www.FaceNBody.com 2005 Lotus Elise: 2bular decat\GT3 exhaust,HID's,turn signal&rear fins delete, CFside scoops, CFbinnacle,CFcenter console,Zoom CF mirror,APR Aero kit,CF 5-elem. diffuser,Exige mesh,Ohlins DA,RTD brace,RAC 'lites,Toyo R888's,HawkHT10's,CO painted calipers,SS lines,Reverie XC CF seat,Reverie CF steering wheel,Schroth Profi II 6 pt harness,shifter re-Enforcer,Manly mounts, Accusump,Moroso pan,BWR key to BWR S/C! Spec Racer Ford #237

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