Brake setups for track days

[Charles Rozier]

Originally Posted by fishguy

In the lotus with the stock set up I felt confident that I could outbrake anything that was on the track with me.

Just another data point here... I agree, at least with stock n/a power and on tires no grippier than 048's. I use Pagid blues on stock rotors. The braking is excellent, but I do find the fluid deteriorates quickly (have tried several high performance fluids). I have to change it after 2-3 days as the boiling point creeps down. I can see that the system may be getting a bit stressed, but it works fine. Biggest problem, as others have said, is consumables cost. Pads every 7 or days, fluid every 2-3, rotors etc.

When I was driving a second or two slower, the brakes lasted a lot longer. I think I might have to upgrade the heat capacity of the system if either I or the car get any faster. But for n/a stock and 048's, I think it's pretty good.

[lotusbrakes]

Originally Posted by xtn

That's a weird thing to say.

The amount of heat a pad generates is exactly the same, regardless of the pad manufacturer, material, size, etc., for a given stop from X mph down to Y mph. The same amount of kinetic energy is converted to heat.

It's true that a pad with lower friction will not generate the same braking torque at the same hydraulic pressure, but the amount of heat generated by slowing from 100 mph to 40 mph, just for example, is exactly the same regardless. I also agree that a higher-friction pad creates a more user-friendly pedal, by reducing the amount of line pressure required for a given amount of braking torque, but again the amount of heat generated for a given speed reduction is the same.

Perhaps you mean to say that the r4 will not dissipate heat as quickly as another pad, and so over a few on-track uses it retains more of that heat and does not cool back down as much in between uses?

xtn

This is correct.

Let me try to re-phrase what I'm trying to say.

ZJChaser, you are having issues with "overheating". But what is actually overheating in your situation, and what are you experiencing when this is happening?

I'm going to assume that at some point, your current brake system is overheating and you are not able to stop as fast as before the overheating begins.

You could be overheating the following:

1. Brake Fluid (it will boil)
2. Brake Rotor (it will start deforming at a certain temp, and will melt at 2500* F)
3. Brake Pads (outside the temp range there will be reduced/no friction)

So you are either boiling your fluid or your brake system is heating up to the point where your brake pad is no longer in its efficiency range.

I can't find the temp range on the Porterfield R4, but here are some maximums:

Pagid Black works up to 1200F.
Pagid Grey works up to 800C (1472F).
Hawk HT-10 works up to 1400F.
Hawk DTC-70 works up to 1600F.

Furthermore, if you look at this chart, you will see a difference in friction between the Pagid products.



From our experience with WRX/STI (350+BHP / 3000-3300 pounds)

the HT-10/DTC have the same or more friction then the Greys.


In conclusion, the amount of heat generated will be the same, however you should choose a pad that will give you high friction at the elevated temperature levels.

[Brent Bauman]

I had to grind off the tiny nub or pin on the backing plate for the fronts to fit. Thanks for the quick ship.

[lotusbrakes]

Originally Posted by Brent Bauman

I had to grind off the tiny nub or pin on the backing plate for the fronts to fit. Thanks for the quick ship.

I know of the pin, but didn't know it interferes with the lotus brembo caliper.

How did these work for you?

[fishguy]

Originally Posted by Charles Rozier

But for n/a stock and 048's, I think it's pretty good.

this is where my experience/comment came from.
anything other than this set-up, i cannot comment with any experience, so i will not try to do so.

[Bleu Omdurman]

Pads: Adare motorsports pads
Rotors: Ultra discs
Fluid: the one that comes in gold or blue. I have the blue in now and will switch to gold for the next bleed (March) stock type fliud
Tires: R888 stock sizes.

[lotusbrakes]

Now that the DBA 4000s are available, wanted to revive this thread just to see what has changed in 6 months.

-G

[stearnsn]

Pads: Cobalt Friction XR2 front XR3 rear
Rotors: Stock
Fluid: ATE
Tires: 048's

My Pagid blues were worn and I asked Eddie at Adrenaline Racing to sell me a set of Pagid Blacks. He talked me into making a change to the Cobalts. He even drove out and met me at the track and put them in during the drivers meeting! They are really powerful.

Saved me some money and wow, I'm no longer thinking about AP calipers.

[coulthard fan]

Originally Posted by coulthard fan

Pads: Porterfield R4
Rotors: stock
Fluid: Motul RBF 600
Tires: either Hankook Z214 (C50); Toyo R888; or Toyo R1R

I bleed the fluid every few track events. Never had fade, and I'm not exactly driving it slowly. Bleeding after every session is probably overkill but it won't hurt anything but your wallet.

Update with a new setup I tried halfway through this season:

Pads: Cobalt Friction XR2
Rotors: Blackwatch racing 2 piece
Fluid: Motul RBF 600
Tires: Hoosier A6 or Toyo R1R

The Cobalts were recommended to me by a race shop who had hooked me up with some parts in the past. I had been having what I thought to be "ice mode" moments with my old setup so I figured why not try something new, even if it wasn't the pads it couldn't hurt right? Wrong.

I only did two track days with the Cobalts, one in the rain and one in the dry; unfortunately they left a layer of rusty brown brake dust on the wheels (two different sets) that still won't come off. I've washed the wheels at least 5 times with every wheel cleaner and even oven cleaner I could find, scrubbed them with a plastic brush, even tried scraping the residue off with a plastic knife, and just tonight I began to hit them with a Dremel/polishing wheel and tar remover. The crud is finally starting to come off, but its going to take a few more hours at least, and perhaps a bottle of single malt scotch.

I noticed after my first track day (it rained that day so I used Toyo R1Rs) with the Cobalts that the dust was on there pretty good and wouldn't come off with a simple spray and rinse like it used to. The dust also turned rust colored but I figured it would come off with a good scrubbing. Anyway, I had another track day coming right up and didn't have any other pads to swap them out with so I covered the other set of wheels I was going to use for my next event (it was dry so I ran Hoosier A6s) in Pam Cooking Spray, an old racers trick to make the wheels easy to clean... and even that didn't work. The dust from the friggin Cobalts ate through the Pam and still stuck to the wheels. The performance of the Cobalts was otherwise fine but due to the ultra toxic dust I wouldn't recommend them to anyone unless you throw your wheels away after each use.

I picked up some Pagid Blacks so I'll report on them next time around.

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by Gary(SF)

Pads: Ferodo DS 2500
Rotors: EBC Gold
Fluid: Motul 600
Tires: 205/60 and 225/60 RA-1 on 15/16 Rota Slipstream

I've used the DS 2500s on everything from Ferrari 360 to the Elise, and really like the pad. All the above components seem to work great.

Gary

Thought I would update this as I had some brake issues at Laguna yesterday. Earlier in the year I upgraded to Pagid Black pads as I was getting fade and very fast wear with the Ferodos. Everything worked great, but as I picked up my pace at Laguna, which is pretty hard on brakes, I experienced near-total loss of braking going into Turn 2 at 115 mph. The pedal just went from a firm normal feeling to dropping suddenly to near the floor. I limped around to the pits and the experts tell me I boiled the fluid. I flushed it about 6 months ago. I let the car sit for a couple of hours and the pedal came back, so I finished the day taking it easier on the brakes. I plan to upgrade the fluid to something with a higher boiling point, and if that doesn't solve it, I'll have to spring for the 2 piece rotors.

Thoughts?

Gary

[turbophil]

That is correct. When brakes go to the floor, the fluid boiled. Get some real fluid. ATE is good and priced right. Have 2 colors, amber and blue, so that you can tell when your fluid has fully flushed through the system. Change every other track day or so if you use your brakes hard and boiling should subside a good bit. Venting helps a lot too. Rotors will help a little.. and every little bit helps. The fluid will help a lot as will frequent changes.

Good luck,

Phil

[lotusbrakes]

Originally Posted by Gary(SF)

Thought I would update this as I had some brake issues at Laguna yesterday. Earlier in the year I upgraded to Pagid Black pads as I was getting fade and very fast wear with the Ferodos. Everything worked great, but as I picked up my pace at Laguna, which is pretty hard on brakes, I experienced near-total loss of braking going into Turn 2 at 115 mph. The pedal just went from a firm normal feeling to dropping suddenly to near the floor. I limped around to the pits and the experts tell me I boiled the fluid. I flushed it about 6 months ago. I let the car sit for a couple of hours and the pedal came back, so I finished the day taking it easier on the brakes. I plan to upgrade the fluid to something with a higher boiling point, and if that doesn't solve it, I'll have to spring for the 2 piece rotors.

Thoughts?

Gary

I sent a quick PM.

Basically you are probably getting the system hot enough to get the DS2500 out of the heat range and they are transferring that heat straight to the fluid.

I would recommend stepping it up to some race pads (we recommend the Hawk HT-10s) and maybe some DBA 4000 rotors depending on your current rotor conditions.

Check out our Hawk / DBA page

** HAWK / DBA End of Year Super Christmas Sale **

with links to the review threads and special Christmas prices.

-G

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by turbophil

That is correct. When brakes go to the floor, the fluid boiled. Get some real fluid. ATE is good and priced right. Have 2 colors, amber and blue, so that you can tell when your fluid has fully flushed through the system. Change every other track day or so if you use your brakes hard and boiling should subside a good bit. Venting helps a lot too. Rotors will help a little.. and every little bit helps. The fluid will help a lot as will frequent changes.

Good luck,

Phil

The pedal dropping to the floor took me by surprise, never experienced that in all my years of SCCA racing and many, many DE's, and I was really surprised considering how light the Elise is.

So Ate is considered better than Motul 600? I thought it was the other way around (I don't have the comparative specs in front of me). Someone suggested going with a high boiling point synthetic fluid.

Thanks for the input, Phil.

Gary

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by lotusbrakes

I sent a quick PM.

Basically you are probably getting the system hot enough to get the DS2500 out of the heat range and they are transferring that heat straight to the fluid.

I would recommend stepping it up to some race pads (we recommend the Hawk HT-10s) and maybe some DBA 4000 rotors depending on your current rotor conditions.

Check out our Hawk / DBA page

** HAWK / DBA End of Year Super Christmas Sale **

with links to the review threads and special Christmas prices.

-G

Thanks Gary, but yeah I already upgraded the pads to Pagid Blacks almost a year ago now. Thanks for all the info, no doubt I'll be putting together an order soon.

Gary

[ZJChaser]

Motul needs to be flushed within a 6 month period. Keep it fresh and you'll be fine. Also thin pads will heat the fluid faster.

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by ZJChaser

Motul needs to be flushed within a 6 month period. Keep it fresh and you'll be fine. Also thin pads will heat the fluid faster.

Yeah, I do think I went a little too long on the fluid change. The pads had about 2/3 material remaining.

Gary

[turbophil]

Gary,
sorry, didn't see that you were already running good fluid. In that case the ate obviously won't help. So I agree just renew the fluid and keep it fresh. Moisture is a problem and the temp swings make it worse. Renew the fluid frequently. Ate is nice because it's different colors and cost half of the 600 with similar performance. Cheaper means you don't feel as bad about changing it often. Add some of Brents ducts as well if you're still having problems. Of course driving style will make a difference as well...

Phil

[Gary(SF)]

What are the group's opinions on synthetic fluids? I know they are expensive but seem to solve the moisture problem. Any first hand experiences?

Gary

[ZJChaser]

I just stick with Motul, as long as its fresh, no problems...



On a side note to track brake setups. I had a few boxes from Performance friction show up. I'll be testing a few different compounds of theirs. I can already say that the quality of the pads are nicer than any others I've seen, now to see how they perform.

[holmz]

Originally Posted by lotusbrakes

...
I would recommend stepping it up to some race pads (we recommend the Hawk HT-10s) and maybe some DBA 4000 rotors depending on your current rotor conditions.
...
Check out our Hawk / DBA page
...

Can you point me to a coefficient of friction versus temperature graph like the one for the Pagids?

Originally Posted by lotusbrakes

I didn't see it addressed.
But the brake balance changes when the coefficient changes...
So a higher coefficient will have more braking in the rear and less heat in the fronts.
Of course you do not want to be locking up the rears (in a non ABS version anyhow I know you don't want that)