Exige S vs Elise - Buttonwillow shootout

[R'elise Me]

There’s been a lot of talk about comparisons on track between the Elise and Exige S. Today we conducted an on track comparison between three definitive Lotuses that were properly prepared for the track, all driven under the exact same conditions at Buttonwillow Raceway (#13 CW 52F light fog but dry, 3 mile laps approx) by the same very capable, professional driver and instructor, Craig Stanton. Craig basically ran time trials of 5 laps back to back with each car in the order below and achieved the times listed.

The cars:

2007 Exige S (karl’s car) with Nitron SA coilovers, heavy springs, Toyo RA1 15/16 tires in prime condition (down to the grooves), the “Karl” suspension alignment / treatment (which is as good as it can get as anyone who knows him would agree) – Karl can maybe chime in to what other mods are pertinent.
Time: 1:59.XX (Karl can you verify)

2007 Exige S (Tom’s car) modified with Lotus MS coilovers, Yoko slicks (a bit heat cycled), big brakes; cup wheels – Prepped in shop and trackside by Allan at Beverly Hills Lotus which means it is DIALED – need not say more. It’s the ultimate S as Tom, the owner, would accept nothing less.
Time: 1:57.xx (Allan or Tom please verify)

2005 Elise – Ohlins DA coilovers (track), LSS package, hardtop, Larini exhaust and sport cat, lower cam switch, A048 tires w/ 4 track days and on their last bit of tread (a bit greasy)
Time: 2:02.06

What’s also very interesting was the conversation several of us has with Craig after the trials to get his technical feedback on the cars. I’ll do my best to recollect. Basically he felt all the cars had the same “flavor” with subtle differences. He felt the time differences between the Elise and Exige S’s were primarily due to power. He stated that he could sense that all the tires were close to being heat cycled out, but that they all hooked up pretty well eventually. Interestingly, most people comment that the RA1’s get better with use. Obviously the slicks paid off as expected, chopping a couple seconds off the lap time. The A048’s were indeed cooked, so I wonder if there was a second that could be deducted with new tires (not in the interested of swaying the comparison, but merely to project the ultimate potential of the car).

Craig commented that the Elise was lots of fun being the lightest and more nimble of the bunch, albeit lower powered. He liked the softer springs and the handling adjustments (basically Jack’s shock and alignment settings). Craig commented, “it’s perfect just the way it is – don’t change anything.” The pseudo-Cup car was described as really nice but hard steering when pushed hard (probably due to the slicks). Karl’s S was also highly complimented but qualified as “too stiffly sprung”. All cars were criticized mildly for uneven brake force “ramp up” (for lack of the proper terminology) with the front force ramping up much more vertically than the rear. Craig has a very unique style of driving that requires delicate brake modulation (easy on, easy off as he described it once to me) and that may be why he’s more sensitive to the break “biasing”. Apparently that can’t be adjusted due to the un adjustable ABS module controlling that.

In closing, I would deduce that if in fact RA1’s don’t get worse with use like the A048’s do (at least that seems to be the majority as well as my own opinion) there would appear to be a 1-2 second difference on this track between the potential of the S and the Elise, the S being the faster. That would explain why it’s not uncommon to see Elises passing Exige S’s and vice versa. It’s always been so close and unqualifiable that the difference has only been attributed to the driver. This shootout, however, shed light on the cars themselves, and what I see now more than ever is that it’s a choice of aesthetics and “feel”. Yes, the Exige S is faster, but the Elise is more nimble and responsive. The Exige S is more aggressive looking, but not necessarily more aggressive(in fact some feel it's more docile.) The Elise, IMO, still appears to me to be the crowning (production) achievement of Lotus – simple, fast, nimble, reliable, even if it's upper potential is limited by the lack of a blower. The Exige S has more icing on the cake, which has it's attractiveness to many, but perhaps not to the purist. Of course, with a blower one can reach the highest of heights in power which has always been my gripe with the Exige in all it's permutations - why not make more power for the money?

A couple other things:
1. Car owners, whoever, please verify the track times (I'm within .xx seconds)
2. Also elaborate on any pertinent mods not mentioned so we have a more qualified comparison. I think I got the major stuff right though.

Another note: the times Craig Stanton acheived in all three cars I believe represent track records for their respective cars. Can anyone verify?

Stay tuned for the R888 Toyo / A048 Yoko / RA1 Toyo shootout at the end of Feb 08. Craig will be there and I'll try to make that happen.

Thanks for setting up the track day, Jack. There was lots of excitement on our tarmac oasis in the desert of fog.

[mlk_f1]

Awesome write up Glen!!

2005 Elise LSS with LSD and Larini Decat, stage II, Stock LSS suspension
Alignment: Zero Toe Front and Rear; -0.9F/-2.0R Camber
15x7 16x8 Volk CE28n
205/50/15 and 225/50/16 RA-1s with about 8 track days on them
No more groove in the rears and 2 grooves on the fronts
BW#13 on 11/04/2007
Laptime time: 2:03.56
Was not a perfect lap at all as you can see. Hoping to cut at least one second from that next time out.
Clicky for Video:

[macfly]

Great write up, wish I could have been there, but sadly I was stuck photographing nubile beauties on the beach yesterday. Work stops play again!


I think it would have been better if everyone had come to the track with fresh tires, and also had the same tires on the different cars, as the tires may make more of a difference than the blower.

My best times were both set on pretty new tires,
Elise - 2:05.5
Exige S - 2:06.1

As you know I've always said I preferred the way my Elise felt at the track, tough the power of the blower makes my Exige S a much better road car.

[mp3moose]

Very cool. Being an elise owner I almost wish the exige was more dominant I could drive my car with a sense of aspiration.

[mjf]

I'd love to see the same comparison done with a few more cars. For instance a 2007 Elise as opposed to the 2005, and a 2007 Elise w/SC. If you really wanted to get into it I wouldn't mind seeing how a Sport Pack or Track Pack would effect it too. From what I read, unless you're driving-to-win, an elise is "as good or more fun" than the exige. Mind you, as I'm getting an Elise I might be reading into it what I want to see. =)

[CountTracula]

Excellent write up. Thank you for that. I look forward to the next Buttonwillow date in late February. I haven't been there since October.

Did anybody capture a video of Craig's driving?

[badhorse]

[QUOTE=macfly;897297]
My best times were both set on pretty new tires,
Elise - 2:05.5
Exige S - 2:06.1

Andrew, what brand and size tires were You running here?

[fishguy]

Originally Posted by macfly

I think it would have been better if everyone had come to the track with fresh tires, and also had the same tires on the different cars, as the tires may make more of a difference than the blower.

I was thinking the same thing about the tires

[R'elise Me]

Originally Posted by mlk_f1

Awesome write up Glen!!

2005 Elise LSS with LSD and Larini Decat, stage II, Stock LSS suspension
Alignment: Zero Toe Front and Rear; -0.9F/-2.0R Camber
15x7 16x8 Volk CE28n
205/50/15 and 225/50/16 RA-1s with about 8 track days on them
No more groove in the rears and 2 grooves on the fronts
BW#13 on 11/04/2007
Laptime time: 2:03.56

Wow!! That's a fantastic time, Manly. I haven't cracked 2.07.00 yet. I can see the chasm between Craig's style and my own. He's just silky smooth on the brakes and his movements are very delicate. I'm still overcooking my entries and mashing the brakes. We should hook up with Craig for some serious coaching. I'd bet you could break the 2:00 barrier with what he could show you. Are you doing the Redline Time Attack this year? Post results if you do.

The beauty of the comparison yesterday was less about determining the time difference between model than it was about showcasing the real potential of all the cars in the hands of a veteran professional driver. What it says to me, especially when he commented that the Elise needed nothing, when in fact there are thousands more that could easily be spent on mods presumably to improve track times, is that in the hands of a great driver these cars are essentially equal regardless of mods. After all, even if they were racing, they would be in different classes. As track day toys, there is really only one reason I can think of to spend more money for the S or Cup - because you can and you really want to. Hey, that's good enough for me. I like not having expectations. Oh yah - the Cup cars are safer, no doubt.

As for the tires, I agree that was the only factor challenging the cred on our test. I'll have new R888's on the Elise next week and I'm sure that at least one Cup car and S will have some new rubber too. Craig will be at the next track day and he seems pretty open to testing our cars. We weren't planning this last test, so I think with some added thought beforehand we can assure credible results.

[R'elise Me]

[quote=badhorse;897521]

Originally Posted by macfly

My best times were both set on pretty new tires,
Elise - 2:05.5
Exige S - 2:06.1

Andrew, what brand and size tires were You running here?

He runs on OEM tires

[Lotusmotion]

Great summary, Glen. I wanted to be there, but business (and a bad shoulder) kept me away.

I'll be at the February BW track day, so it will be cool to witness the tire shoot-out. I plan to get R888s shortly to replace the AO48s on my Exige.

Andrew, I feel no compassion for you...gazing at nubile beauties doesn't count as work! Let's see ... cars ... chicks ... cars ... chicks?

Hope to see you both at BW next month!

[Gary(SF)]

Great useful post! Sorry I had to miss this event. Of course none of us will approach Stanton's times, this guy is a consummate pro, but it gives us something to shoot for. I'm still hearing from some sources that the RA1 is the better choice compared to the R888 for lighter (under 2500 lbs) cars, so that comparison will be interesting also.

Gary

[mlk_f1]

Originally Posted by R'elise Me

Wow!! That's a fantastic time, Manly. I haven't cracked 2.07.00 yet. I can see the chasm between Craig's style and my own. He's just silky smooth on the brakes and his movements are very delicate. I'm still overcooking my entries and mashing the brakes. We should hook up with Craig for some serious coaching. I'd bet you could break the 2:00 barrier with what he could show you. Are you doing the Redline Time Attack this year? Post results if you do.

haha, if Craig does 2:02.06 in this:

2005 Elise – Ohlins DA coilovers (track), LSS package, hardtop, Larini exhaust and sport cat, lower cam switch, A048 tires w/ 4 track days and on their last bit of tread (a bit greasy)
Time: 2:02.06

It is very unlikely I'll come close to breaking 2:00 in my car with similar specs. I'll be extremely happy if I can come within .5 second from his time.
RE: Redline time attack, yes, most likely I'll be running. There will be more competition this year though. I'll be lucky to place in the top six this time in Street RWD class.

[R'elise Me]

What happens if you run with R compounds? Will you be outclassed?

BTW, if you're only 1.5 seconds away with a stock car I think if you learned a few tricks from Craig you may just get there. Remember - your still young and crazy so I'm sure you'll try!!! Regardless, I'm sure Craig could carve a second or better off his time if he drove the Elise for more laps - but don't think about that.

[AZReason]

Thanks for the great information! Countless hours of setup and testing shared. This is what makes EliseTalk(LotusTalk) great!

I find it interesting that all these cars are on the stock Sway Bar.

As for the tire test, I would guess that shaved RA-1's or the R888 full tread will be the fastest. A048 sidewalls are too stiff for the car IMO but will be close behind. I am sure Craig can drive around the sidewall stiffness and resulting lower tire pressures much better than I can so, it might be a very close result.

Thank you so much for sharing this info!

[MikeP]

Originally Posted by mlk_f1

haha, if Craig does 2:02.06 in this:

It is very unlikely I'll come close to breaking 2:00 in my car with similar specs. I'll be extremely happy if I can come within .5 second from his time.
RE: Redline time attack, yes, most likely I'll be running. There will be more competition this year though. I'll be lucky to place in the top six this time in Street RWD class.

I guess Manly is pretty happy now since he won the time attack and did it almost a full second faster than Craig Stanton's time - and on street tires no less.

BTW, for people who aren't aware of it, Manly's been tracking for only 2 years. Amazing.

[carl]

Originally Posted by MikeP

I guess Manly is pretty happy now since he won the time attack and did it almost a full second faster than Craig Stanton's time - and on street tires no less.

BTW, for people who aren't aware of it, Manly's been tracking for only 2 years. Amazing.

Craig was maybe 8-10ths he never goes flat out with someone's else's car. When he was done he said he still had 1-2 seconds in him. carl

[R'elise Me]

But still - Manley's time on street tires is very impressive. BTW - at least 6 months of the last two years he spent without the Elise.

Way to go Manley! What tire were you running? See you on the 13th at Buttonwillow.

[AZReason]

From the pictures it looked like he was running the new Toyo R1R's

[R'elise Me]

You're correct. Manly - maybe you can chime in on your thoughts about the R1R tires. I've heard they are alomst as sticky as an R compound, but I imagine the tread blocks render it squirmier than an R888.

I'd venture to say Manly has the new NA Lotus Elise/Exige track record for BRP 13 CW.