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Old 03-22-2008, 07:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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When to blip throttle during rev match sequence

After noticing how the engine always wound down a bit too much before I let the clutch out during a rev match shift, and therefore didn't really rev match, I tried something different today. Instead of blipping the throttle immediately after depressing the clutch (and before actually shifting), this time I waited to finish shifting, then blipped the throttle, then let out the clutch. Sometimes it seemed to work really smooth, but on several shifts, I THINK it was limited to the 3rd-to-2nd downshifts, the blip hardly revved the engine at all.

Then I started experimenting to compare my "old" method with the new sequence, and it sure seemed to me that the engine was much more responsive to the blip when I hit it immediately after depressing the clutch, and before shifting.

So here is my question please. What is the proper sequence? And if the answer is clutch-shift-blip-clutch, why do you think the engine isn't being responsive on some of my blips, most noticeably going from 3rd to 2nd? It's a brand new 06 Exige S, only 400 mi. Thanks very much for any help.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:45 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Brake- have foot on brake and throttle, keep braking, engage clutch-shift-disengage clutch as you blip/roll on the throttle. 3 pedals 2 feet.
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Old 03-22-2008, 07:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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... the blip hardly revved the engine at all.

... why do you think the engine isn't being responsive on some of my blips
Don't wimp the blip.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You should be blipping the throttle just before you let the clutch out with the the goal being to increase revs to match the lower gear. Done right, this will make for a much smoother downshift since the speed of the engine will match the speed of the transmission. Otherwise, you are relying on the friction of the clutch to force the engine to "catch up" to the speed of the transmission which is bad on your clutch and can upset the balance of the car. Do a search for heal and toe downshift and you'll get all the info you need.
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Old 03-22-2008, 08:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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When I come to a corner and need to downshift I start braking then blip the throttle and at the same time put the clutch in and shift and let the clutch out as fast as possible before the RPM's drop down again.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:23 PM   #6 (permalink)
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sounds like you need to be a bit more aggressive on the blip. i had to get used to this too when i got the elise
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:25 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Brake- have foot on brake and throttle, keep braking, engage clutch-shift-disengage clutch as you blip/roll on the throttle. 3 pedals 2 feet.
This is heel/toe right? I'm trying to take baby steps and work my way up to that, just working on the rev matching for now. Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:27 PM   #8 (permalink)
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sounds like you need to be a bit more aggressive on the blip. i had to get used to this too when i got the elise
Yeah I'm sure you're right, will do.
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
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When I come to a corner and need to downshift I start braking then blip the throttle and at the same time put the clutch in and shift and let the clutch out as fast as possible before the RPM's drop down again.
So it's not bad for the drivetrain to blip and put clutch in simultaneously? This sounds like a cool technique because it will free up the brake foot sooner for those times when you need to downshift more than once and could use more braking too, such as after a long straightaway before a tight corner. Am I making any sense???
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Old 03-22-2008, 09:36 PM   #10 (permalink)
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You should be blipping the throttle just before you let the clutch out with the the goal being to increase revs to match the lower gear. Done right, this will make for a much smoother downshift since the speed of the engine will match the speed of the transmission. Otherwise, you are relying on the friction of the clutch to force the engine to "catch up" to the speed of the transmission which is bad on your clutch and can upset the balance of the car. Do a search for heal and toe downshift and you'll get all the info you need.
Thanks for this. Hopefully I can make it to Lotus school asap. In the meantime I have "Speed Secrets 1" on order and will keep practicing in the canyons. But for now, rev matching is my limit, heel/toe next. Man I am really looking forward to feeling confident driving with these skills, gotta be a real blast!
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok, couple of discoveries driving today: 1) I can blip WHILE shifting (feel really stupid for not thinking of that earlier) 2) Reason some of my blips weren't revving the engine was because they were too fast, like half a second.
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Old 03-23-2008, 07:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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There is a difference between just "rev-matching" and "Heel-Toe downshifting". One incorporates both rev-matching and the brakes (heel-toe), the other does not(rev-match).

If your just downshifting for power, then cluth/rev/shift/clutch/gas.

If your Heel toeing, then brake, clutch/rev/shift/gas
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Old 03-23-2008, 08:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It is called heal an toe but it is actually toe and side of foot. But don't worry it is a skill that once you learn you never forget. You might check the relationship of the gas to brake pedal. I like mine closer than most because for me I can keep the brake preasure up while reving the motor. One thing you did not mention was if you were going down through the box such as 6 to 5 to 4 to 3 or jumping gears such as 6 to 3? I was trained at racing school not to jump gears. I went to the same school and (instructors)as Prost but Prost jumped gears when he drove. Same with braking, most schools treach to brake in a straight line (Senna most of the time). But Winfield also taught trail braking (braking while turning) and it seems alot of the current top guys brake while turning (Prost & Mansell). So alot of the driving you do will depend on your style. Some are very smooth, some are aggresive but they seem to have the same times.
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:11 AM   #14 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=SIIK2NR;964289]If your just downshifting for power, then cluth/rev/shift/clutch/gas.

Thanks. And the rev/shift can be at the same time, not sequentially, right?
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:30 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It is called heal an toe but it is actually toe and side of foot. But don't worry it is a skill that once you learn you never forget. You might check the relationship of the gas to brake pedal. I like mine closer than most because for me I can keep the brake preasure up while reving the motor. One thing you did not mention was if you were going down through the box such as 6 to 5 to 4 to 3 or jumping gears such as 6 to 3? I was trained at racing school not to jump gears. I went to the same school and (instructors)as Prost but Prost jumped gears when he drove. Same with braking, most schools treach to brake in a straight line (Senna most of the time). But Winfield also taught trail braking (braking while turning) and it seems alot of the current top guys brake while turning (Prost & Mansell). So alot of the driving you do will depend on your style. Some are very smooth, some are aggresive but they seem to have the same times.
Thanks for all the info. When I start learning to heel/toe I'm sure I'll have to make some adjustments to the pedals, or get some kind of adapter, because I pronate pretty bad. My understanding is some like to roll side-to-side with the foot, and that would seem to be a good solution for pronaters, but the consensus I've seen on this forum is that many consider this a bit risky (at least for a beginner). But since my foot pronates about 25 degrees, it will be a real contortion to get my heel on the throttle. Might be possible, but I won't know for sure until I play with it for awhile. But that's why I'm thinking there will probably be some pedal adjustments needed.

It would be interesting to hear from experienced heel/toe drivers with pronating feet, and how they handled it. I would think alot of people besides just me would benefit from their advice.

Just want to add how much I appreciate all the existing info and answers to basic questions on this site. It has made Lotus ownership more enjoyable and gratifying. Kind of like when I met my wife and was pretty sure she was the one, but after meeting her family I knew for sure!
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Old 03-24-2008, 12:32 AM   #16 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=redguitar;964387]
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Originally Posted by SIIK2NR View Post
If your just downshifting for power, then cluth/rev/shift/clutch/gas.

Thanks. And the rev/shift can be at the same time, not sequentially, right?
Yes it can be at the same time but most often it's done sequentially. It's a rythm..... (Clutch)........(REV)......(shift/release clutch). I think it would be hard to shift and rev at the same time, but if you can do it....more power to ya.

Tim
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Old 03-24-2008, 08:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well, the proper time is of course to blip right before you let the clutch out, but the overall timing of the whole down-shift sequence should be fast enough that this proper time ALSO happens immediately upon clutch disengagement.

In other words, you should be blipping upon clutch disengagement, shifting fast, and immediately letting the clutch out before you loose the revs of the blip.

If there is some reason you are delaying the shift sequence, then wait to blip until right before you let the clutch pedal out.

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Old 03-24-2008, 09:08 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I learned to rev match when I was in highschool and the clutch hyrdaulics went out on the POS I was driving. It took me a couple of months to get the funds together for the parts, so I drove without a functioning clutch for that time. Unfortnately, I discovered a couple of years ago that this had taught me to match revs wrong...I was timing the blip to match revs when I put the car back in gear, not when I released the clutch. It's *really* hard to unlearn a bad habit like that!
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:11 AM   #19 (permalink)
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What are people's thoughts on DOUBLE CLUTCHING? Some have told me that our cars don't require it. That the sequentials in the toyota trannies are better than in older cars but I've noticed some really fast drivers (like Manley at the Spring Mountain Lotus Challenge series) do double clutch. Thoughts?
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:14 AM   #20 (permalink)
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What are people's thoughts on DOUBLE CLUTCHING? Some have told me that our cars don't require it. That the sequentials in the toyota trannies are better than in older cars but I've noticed some really fast drivers (like Manley at the Spring Mountain Lotus Challenge series) do double clutch. Thoughts?
The synchros are pretty good and eliminate the need for double clutching AFAIK, however, I still double clutch quite often (for reason). No harm that I am aware of if you double clutch.
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