Looks like the dealer's jack slipped!

[rob13572468]

WTF... no way should they be allowed to get away with that...

i could see if it was an innocent mistake but that is outright negligence... no way would i accept that. jacking points are a well known issue on all cars; even more so on the elise since they only put huge markers on the bottom of the car to insure proper placement of the lift arms. and this is a lotus dealer... supposedly with trained technicians. do not in any way let them get away with this one...


now as for solutions, there are people trained in metal working who can possibly fix this by literally using a set of special tools to work the crease(s) out of the metal... the problem is that it is almost an old world craft that requires an insane amount of training and practice to do correctly and not many of these guys are around anymore. I dont now how much luck you will have finding one and then its going to end up costing some money.


I personally, would start by demanding that the chassis (or vehicle) be replaced.

[pinmagic]

Originally Posted by rob13572468

I personally, would start by demanding that the chassis (or vehicle) be replaced.

Remind me not to sell YOU a car!

[fastliz]

Originally Posted by rob13572468

WTF... no way should they be allowed to get away with that...

i could see if it was an innocent mistake but that is outright negligence... no way would i accept that. jacking points are a well known issue on all cars; even more so on the elise since they only put huge markers on the bottom of the car to insure proper placement of the lift arms. and this is a lotus dealer... supposedly with trained technicians. do not in any way let them get away with this one...

....
I personally, would start by demanding that the chassis (or vehicle) be replaced.

I guess with age (I'm 41), I'm not as quick to go nuts about stuff like this. It DOES bother me. But, I wouldn't go so far as to demand a new chassis or a new car. It's simply not THAT serious. Is some concession applicable? Yes, probably. And, you're right... stuff like this simply shouldn't happen. Can it be fixed? Probably not.

Mike

[Stan]

I think the panel can be massaged back fairly well. The mars on the bottom of the car can be tweaked a bit but I'd likely leave them alone. If it were my car I'd get a flat wooden board under the car's floor panel damage. Perhaps held up firmly with a jack. Such that the good areas of the alloy frame touch the board, while the damaged areas would be "above" the surface of the wood. Then with the seat out, I'd try to tap the panel back into a flat shape of the wood. Using something strong but soft such as wood or hard plastic. The panel would stop when it hit the board on the underside. So the wooden board would act as a form. My car has been jacked up many times using that little aluminum jack I posted about some time ago. It has a rubber pad and the undersurface remains mint. I'd try to get some free accessories and service out of the matter too.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by fastwrx

I can't imagine how they'd fix it without replacing the chassis or a section of it.

You can't repair the chassis or even a section of it. The chassis is bonded together and you cannot weld in repairs as the aluminum is too thin. The dent is probably going to have to remain.

[rob13572468]

Originally Posted by fastwrx

I guess with age (I'm 41), I'm not as quick to go nuts about stuff like this. It DOES bother me. But, I wouldn't go so far as to demand a new chassis or a new car. It's simply not THAT serious. Is some concession applicable? Yes, probably. And, you're right... stuff like this simply shouldn't happen. Can it be fixed? Probably not.

Mike

i admire that it doesnt bother you that much, i would just start with a big demand for leverage; btw asking for a replacement car is not that out of line appearantly, i have seen it happen and was granted in a similar case involving an aston martin, also a stupid mistake that never should have happened. the end result was that the dealer learned a valuable and costly lesson and as a result their customer vehicles are now VERY well taken care of as a result.

Granted, it was an aston martin, but does does the owner of a 50K car deserve any less than an owner of a 150K car? sometimes they need to bleed a little bit or they wont learn...

[fastliz]

Oh, it DOES bother me. But, I also feel I have to be practical. First, I realize (assuming I'm correct) that this will not affect the integrity, mechanical soundness, or longevity of the car. Secondly, I don't want to WAIT for another Elise! I WOULD, however, like to hear what the dealer has to say about it and what concessions may be offered.

I agree that it was a stupid mistake (and this dealer sells Aston Martins, too!). I'm willing to accept the idiosyncracies that owning a Lotus entails. Thanks to this forum, I'm well-aware of them and won't freak out as a result. But, this is different... This is DAMAGE done at the dealer (unless they put the car on a lift at the port of arrival for some reason). AND... I wasn't told about it. That's not cool. I can laugh about the A/C fan control knob falling off. But, this is different. I haven't yet even spoken to PBMC about this, yet. I'm busy during the day. I did email Ryan Moore (works at PBMC), who monitors this site, with a link to this thread. I haven't heard back from him, yet. My salesman was Lance Payne. Both Ryan and Lance are really nice guys, so I expect we can arrive at a cordial settlement of some kind. At any rate, I'll be in for the 1000-mile check soon enough. I've got a list of things to tell them... Most of which fall under the idiosyncracies department. The overspray / white pox is a fairly major one, but I plan on taking care of that myself.

Mike

[z06fun]

I just noticed a very similar thing on my car, thing is mine is quite far back from the designated jacking point. I'm REALLY hoping it was my dealer that did it because if it wasn't it means someone tried to jack up my car when it was out in a parking lot at some point

[fastliz]

Just got back from my 1000-mile service. I brought up a list of little problems... mostly observations... like the white pox issue. I also showed them the scar from the misplaced jack. Well... this dealer uses a drive-on lift... no jacks used. So, it had to have happened either in port, or before then... (in Hethel??).

Bottom line is nothing will be done about it. Frankly, I don't even want to know what the fix would be, because I'm quite certain it would not be worth pursuing. I'm afraid the car may end up WORSE than before. So, I'm letting it go. It's not a cosmetic nor structural problem. So, that's the end of the story.

Mike

[Stan]

Much of it looks tweakable...aluminum is pretty formable/malleable so with the info in a prior post you could do about a 95+% fix. Or just leave it.

[Evl]

Originally Posted by fastwrx

Well... this dealer uses a drive-on lift... no jacks used. So, it had to have happened either in port, or before then... (in Hethel??).

Uhh, not that I want to make you unhappy if you are already satified, but the "drive on" lift excuse seems pretty weak to me. How do you suppose they change wheels/tires or work on the suspension. At some point they have to be able to lift a car by the frame, regardless of wether or not they drive the car to the lift or roll the lift under the car, and if their excuse for why they didn't do it to your car is that they only lift a car by the wheels, I would stay as far as possible from that service department in the future.

[Randy Chase]

I am thinking that they are saying they use a drive-on lift, as in one that has movable arms and will lift the car. But that lift would not make the marks on the car as a floor jack would.

[lotusport]

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

I am thinking that they are saying they use a drive-on lift, as in one that has movable arms and will lift the car. But that lift would not make the marks on the car as a floor jack would.

If you misplace one of those arms, it will do exactly the same kind of damage as a floor jack.

This would concern me enough to get in touch with Dave Simkin or Clyde Shepherd from LCU and ask if there is any chance that structural integrity is compromised as a result. They should examine the car and make an informed determination. After all, we know that the chassis is critical and cannot be repaired if it is tweaked. Dave can be reached by e-mail at <dsimkin@sbcglobal.net>. I don't have Clyde's e-mail address handy.

[fastliz]

I think they meant that for the dealer prep / PDI, they use a lift that the car literally drives onto. They don't work on the suspension or remove the wheels during PDI, AFAIK. Anyone know differently?

Mike

[EdHahn]

Example of a drive-on lift:



Image stolen from bendpak.com

ed

[KuroiSport]

At this point it's the principle. Whoever did it at the dealer should have owned up to it and you should have been told before delivery.

[EdHahn]

Also - a comment on structural integrity of a sheet metal chassis component.

In aircraft wings, the use of sheet metal on a structure like this (i.e. where thicker extrusions provide the main shape (stringers/spars) and load structure, and the skin is relatively thin) is to provide shear resistance to the overall structure. This is accomplished through the large area of the continuous sheet.

For a simplified example: imagine 4 bars of aluminum fastened in a square shape. It's very easy to distort the shape of the structure by pulling on opposite corners. This called "shear" distortion.

Now, if you fasten a very thin sheet of metal (or corrugated cardboard for that matter) along the edge to all four pieces, it now becomes very difficult to distort the structure. If you dent the surface of the skin in a way that doesn't compromise its attachment to the stringers and spars, it doesn't really affect the shear strength provided (although cutting a hole is another story altogether).

This is why on an aircraft wing you'll see markings and warnings for mechanics to walk only in certain areas - in other areas, the skin is thin enough that damage to the sheet metal panels can occur - yet still plenty strong to hold the fully loaded aircraft up.

However, keep in mind that for an airplane wing, a dent in the upper surface of the wing can significantly affect the airflow, and thus the lift created by the wing.

While the chassis for the Elise is not exactly the same as a wing (but is closer to an aircraft wing structure than the typical car body), large expanses of sheet metal perform the same function of providing shear strength.

In other words, the sills, front structure, and rear structure provide the bending (2-axis) and twisting strength, while the sheet metal of the bottom provides the shear strength.

Fortunately, since moving the airflow so it follows a very precise shape is not a critical function of the Elise chassis (compared with an airplane wing), it's unlikely that the dent is having any significant effect structurally.

That said, if in fact Lotus engineers can be reached, I would let them inspect the photos remotely, but wouldn't be worried about an on-site inspection.

ed

(PS. if anyone cares, my credentials are an MS in Aeronautics from a well-known Cambridge, MA engineering school, and experience as an aircraft engineer with two major airlines. That said, I'd be the last to suggest that one should rely just on schooling and old job experience - too many charlatans hope to gain credibility by putting forth such credentials.)

[a squared]

That's if someone at the dealer did do it. Nonetheless, even if it was delivered to the dealership in that condition it should have been noted at PDI. And to me, it does look exactly like the sort of damage cause by a lift and not a floor jack. You can see the yellow pads at the end of the arms on this lift. Well, there is a pivot point on them so that the short end of the pad can fold upwards at about 90 degrees. And to me, it resembles the damage done to the bottom of Fastwrx,s car. Frankly, at this point I would bypass the dealership and contact Lotus directly. It should be repaired and not at your expense.


Rotary Lift.com


"Much of it looks tweakable...aluminum is pretty formable/malleable so with the info in a prior post you could do about a 95+% fix. Or just leave it."


Aluminium also tears very easily.

[Stan]

"Much of it looks tweakable...aluminum is pretty formable/malleable so with the info in a prior post you could do about a 95+% fix. Or just leave it."
>>>Aluminium also tears very easily.<<<

You don't tear it, you form it back to shape with a flat piece of wood behind it. As in under the car goes the wood, with the seat out you bring the aluminum back to the same level as the rest of the sheet that is already touching the wood. Pretty safe!

[a squared]

Much easier said than done. And of course, it depends on how bad the damage is. Trust me, aluminum can and will tear depending on how much fatiguing it takes from the work being done to it.