Looks like the dealer's jack slipped! - Page 3 - LotusTalk

fastliz · 05-13-2005, 05:24 PM

I agree on the principle of it. However, I also look at the practicality of doing a repair. What is the risk vs. benefit? The benefit is truly minimal if you don't count the emotional factor. The risk is not having my car for a LONG time. Other risks may include the wear and tear on the car by virtue of having such significant work done on it.

Maybe I will contact Lotus. I just think they should know about it more than anything.

Mike

Stan · 05-13-2005, 06:43 PM

>>>Much easier said than done. And of course, it depends on how bad the damage is. Trust me, aluminum can and will tear depending on how much fatiguing it takes from the work being done to it.<<<

Let's look into it, shall we?

The Lotus Elise frame elements include about thirty five (35) aluminum extrusions made from 6063 aluminum magnesium silicon alloy. These frame elements are the primary load carrying members in this car. 6063 is a heat treatable alloy used for extrusions. Ours are heat treated and the resulting improved physical properties such as tensile strength are fully realized since no welding is used to attach them to one another. Instead the glue and rivets do the trick and require lower processing and curing temperatures. 6063 has good impact absorption characteristics. BTW the new Ford GT uses 6061 in welded areas, but 6063 in it's bumpers, selected for this specific characteristic. We can use 6063 for most of the frame since we are not welding and the impact resistance is a plus. This is the part of the frame that can't be bent back in shape or repaired for the most part. However, the formability of this alloy is still regarded as good, but much less so than the flat panel sections, below. It's also weldable, although Lotus does not suggest this, possibly because of the thin wall sizes used, the loss of heat treatment qualities, and other reasons. I'm positive that SOME repairs could be performed on a tweaked frame, but I don't think that there has been much work in that area. I think Lotus should look into that since there are room temp cureable glues nowadays and things like suspension pickup points are so vulnerable in an accident, particularly to the front. Our rear is sturdier as we have a steel subframe doing most of the grunt work.

The Elise frame also uses ~ three (3) sheet metal panels. They are made from 3105 alloy which is nearly pure aluminum with minor additions for strength. It is often rolled into sheets as in our case. It is not hardenable by heat treatment. Corrosion resistance, formability and welding characteristics are ***excellent***.

The damage to the floor of Fastwrx'es Elise is right in the part of the frame made from extremely formable material! 3105 is commonly used in the manufacture of residential siding, mobile homes, and rain carrying goods such as gutters and leaders. Like I have said, very formable! It is commonly used in sheet metal work. It is not exotic in any way.

So, again, the damage here is very tweakable, and with very low effort and without special tools or skills other than some b****. I think it might be like a one hour project. Maybe I should have supplied more info earlier on.

Folks this car throws people because it's weird...body shops take 16 hours to do a 2 hour effort for some efforts. The next time they'd probably reduce this dramatically - the learning curve. Something like a practical, pramatic repair to this garden variety aluminum section is a viable option.

Lotus may or may not condone it. They have to worry about the bottom line, lawyers and just getting the new operation off the ground.

a squared · 05-15-2005, 10:05 AM

Hi Stan, all very good info there. And now your statements make more sense to me. I don't dboubt that you are correct that it could be repaired. Although, I would leave it to a professional metal worker who is acustomed to working with aluminium.

I wonder if Lotus has authorized repair shops, I'm thinking not. I know that Aston Martin does for the Vanquish. They provide training and will only ship parts to an authorized repair facility for structural elements. Even if you own a Vanquish, there are parts that you can not purchase.

Stan · 05-15-2005, 05:25 PM

>>>Hi Stan, all very good info there. And now your statements make more sense to me. I don't dboubt that you are correct that it could be repaired. Although, I would leave it to a professional metal worker who is acustomed to working with aluminium. I wonder if Lotus has authorized repair shops, I'm thinking not. I know that Aston Martin does for the Vanquish. They provide training and will only ship parts to an authorized repair facility for structural elements. Even if you own a Vanquish, there are parts that you can not purchase.<<<

Hey I have friends who call a handyman every time they want to hang a picture. They're happy and that is fine but it's not what I do.

You start out with a flat floor. The flat floor got reformed to a nonflat shape. My suggestion is to reform the nonflat area back to flat as described in a basic way earlier in the thread. The metal can take it.

If you want to bring it to a metal forming expert, have one of those paintless dent repair guys do it. Just yank the seat and move / remove anything else in the way and give him 10-20 minutes.

a squared · 05-15-2005, 05:48 PM

"Hey I have friends who call a handyman every time they want to hang a picture. They're happy and that is fine but it's not what I do."

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've rebuilt plenty of engines, swapped trannies, and have torn suspensions out of cars and reworked them. I don't fear labor. But, metal working takes experience to get it right. I doubt any "one of those paintless dent repair guys" can repair that damage in 10-20 minutes. That's if they would even take it on. There are many jobs that they won't touch and I think this is one of them. They typically work with steel sheet metal and I wouldn't consider them to be "metal forming experts".

TimMullen · 05-15-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a squared

paintless dent repair guys" can repair that damage in 10-20 minutes. That's if they would even take it on. There are many jobs that they won't touch and I think this is one of them. They typically work with steel sheet metal and I wouldn't consider them to be "metal forming experts".

To add to this, many of the paintless dent repair guys won't touch the aluminum hood of the Miata, and that's not a structural component.

I would be hesitant to start pounding on aluminum. Aluminum does some interesting things with work hardening, etc. The floor is structural as a shear panel, and pounding it flat without "shrinking" the metal may not be a good thing. I'm sure that the dents can be repaired, but I'd probably just leave well enough alone.

lotusport · 05-16-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastwrx

Maybe I will contact Lotus. I just think they should know about it more than anything.

Hey Mike, By all means get in touch with Dave Simkin and ask him if he feels it needs to be examined more closely. If he feels that there is no structural problem, I'd (if it were my car) ask him to put his opinion in writing and I'd file it away. If nothing ever came of it, no problem. OTOH, if the floor tears or flex cracks begin to appear, you're on record as having called their attention to the problem when the car was first delivered.

No matter where the damage occurred, since it happened before the car was delivered to you brand new, it should not be your problem.

fastliz · 05-16-2005, 11:58 AM

Bob,

Any idea how I can contact David Simkin? Got an email? Phone?

Thanks!

Mike

rob13572468 · 05-16-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMullen

To add to this, many of the paintless dent repair guys won't touch the aluminum hood of the Miata, and that's not a structural component.

I would be hesitant to start pounding on aluminum. Aluminum does some interesting things with work hardening, etc. The floor is structural as a shear panel, and pounding it flat without "shrinking" the metal may not be a good thing. I'm sure that the dents can be repaired, but I'd probably just leave well enough alone.

there is no pounding or hitting of the metal involved. you need to find an old world metal worker like the guys who still form fenders by hand and such. they have a set of tools that are specific to this task and they use them by selecting the correct tool and then pushing the metal by hand with just the right amount of force to bend it back into the original position, little by little.

these guys are very good at what they do, but there arent many of them left. as stan said, the paintless dent guys can probably do it as well but may have less experience working with aluminum. at any rate, they use the same techniques... no hitting or pounding involved...

like stan said, the car is not made of some magic material, its just plain old aluminum, something that plenty of people are well versed in working with...

lotusport · 05-17-2005, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastwrx

Bob,

Any idea how I can contact David Simkin? Got an email? Phone?

Thanks!

Mike

Dave can be reached by e-mail at <dsimkin@sbcglobal.net>.

Joetz · 05-17-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by a squared

Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've rebuilt plenty of engines, swapped trannies, and have torn suspensions out of cars and reworked them. I don't fear labor. But, metal working takes experience to get it right. I doubt any "one of those paintless dent repair guys" can repair that damage in 10-20 minutes. That's if they would even take it on. There are many jobs that they won't touch and I think this is one of them. They typically work with steel sheet metal and I wouldn't consider them to be "metal forming experts".

I saw a BMW Z3 with a huge dent in the hood left from the hood being slammed shut with a screwdriver sitting in the engine compartment. It put a giant ding in the hood from the inside. I don't know if the hood of a Z3 BMW is steel or aluminum, but the dent wizard that fixed the ding did an unbelievable job. You couldn't even tell anything happened to the car.

05-13-2005, 05:24 PM	#41 (permalink)
fastliz formerly known as fastwrx Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 1,495	I agree on the principle of it. However, I also look at the practicality of doing a repair. What is the risk vs. benefit? The benefit is truly minimal if you don't count the emotional factor. The risk is not having my car for a LONG time. Other risks may include the wear and tear on the car by virtue of having such significant work done on it. Maybe I will contact Lotus. I just think they should know about it more than anything. Mike __________________ The "car-tist" formerly known as Fastwrx! 2004 Subaru WRX STi 2005 Lotus Elise CO, LSS, Hardtop, Starshield - Got it!!

05-13-2005, 06:43 PM	#42 (permalink)
Stan - Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,927	>>>Much easier said than done. And of course, it depends on how bad the damage is. Trust me, aluminum can and will tear depending on how much fatiguing it takes from the work being done to it.<<< Let's look into it, shall we? The Lotus Elise frame elements include about thirty five (35) aluminum extrusions made from 6063 aluminum magnesium silicon alloy. These frame elements are the primary load carrying members in this car. 6063 is a heat treatable alloy used for extrusions. Ours are heat treated and the resulting improved physical properties such as tensile strength are fully realized since no welding is used to attach them to one another. Instead the glue and rivets do the trick and require lower processing and curing temperatures. 6063 has good impact absorption characteristics. BTW the new Ford GT uses 6061 in welded areas, but 6063 in it's bumpers, selected for this specific characteristic. We can use 6063 for most of the frame since we are not welding and the impact resistance is a plus. This is the part of the frame that can't be bent back in shape or repaired for the most part. However, the formability of this alloy is still regarded as good, but much less so than the flat panel sections, below. It's also weldable, although Lotus does not suggest this, possibly because of the thin wall sizes used, the loss of heat treatment qualities, and other reasons. I'm positive that SOME repairs could be performed on a tweaked frame, but I don't think that there has been much work in that area. I think Lotus should look into that since there are room temp cureable glues nowadays and things like suspension pickup points are so vulnerable in an accident, particularly to the front. Our rear is sturdier as we have a steel subframe doing most of the grunt work. The Elise frame also uses ~ three (3) sheet metal panels. They are made from 3105 alloy which is nearly pure aluminum with minor additions for strength. It is often rolled into sheets as in our case. It is not hardenable by heat treatment. Corrosion resistance, formability and welding characteristics are *excellent. The damage to the floor of Fastwrx'es Elise is right in the part of the frame made from extremely formable material! 3105 is commonly used in the manufacture of residential siding, mobile homes, and rain carrying goods such as gutters and leaders.* Like I have said, very formable! It is commonly used in sheet metal work. It is not exotic in any way. So, again, the damage here is very tweakable, and with very low effort and without special tools or skills other than some b***. I think it might be like a one hour project. Maybe I should have supplied more info earlier on. Folks this car throws people because it's weird...body shops take 16 hours to do a 2 hour effort for some efforts. The next time they'd probably reduce this dramatically - the learning curve. Something like a practical, pramatic repair to this garden variety aluminum section is a viable option. Lotus may or may not condone it. They have to worry about the bottom line, lawyers and just getting the new operation off the ground. Last edited by Stan : 05-13-2005 at 06:54 PM.*

05-16-2005, 11:58 AM	#48 (permalink)
fastliz formerly known as fastwrx Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 1,495	Bob, Any idea how I can contact David Simkin? Got an email? Phone? Thanks! Mike __________________ The "car-tist" formerly known as Fastwrx! 2004 Subaru WRX STi 2005 Lotus Elise CO, LSS, Hardtop, Starshield - Got it!!

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05-15-2005, 10:05 AM	#43 (permalink)
a squared Must have Elise turbo Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 62	Hi Stan, all very good info there. And now your statements make more sense to me. I don't dboubt that you are correct that it could be repaired. Although, I would leave it to a professional metal worker who is acustomed to working with aluminium. I wonder if Lotus has authorized repair shops, I'm thinking not. I know that Aston Martin does for the Vanquish. They provide training and will only ship parts to an authorized repair facility for structural elements. Even if you own a Vanquish, there are parts that you can not purchase.

05-15-2005, 05:25 PM	#44 (permalink)
Stan - Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 6,927	>>>Hi Stan, all very good info there. And now your statements make more sense to me. I don't dboubt that you are correct that it could be repaired. Although, I would leave it to a professional metal worker who is acustomed to working with aluminium. I wonder if Lotus has authorized repair shops, I'm thinking not. I know that Aston Martin does for the Vanquish. They provide training and will only ship parts to an authorized repair facility for structural elements. Even if you own a Vanquish, there are parts that you can not purchase.<<< Hey I have friends who call a handyman every time they want to hang a picture. They're happy and that is fine but it's not what I do. You start out with a flat floor. The flat floor got reformed to a nonflat shape. My suggestion is to reform the nonflat area back to flat as described in a basic way earlier in the thread. The metal can take it. If you want to bring it to a metal forming expert, have one of those paintless dent repair guys do it. Just yank the seat and move / remove anything else in the way and give him 10-20 minutes.

05-15-2005, 05:48 PM	#45 (permalink)
a squared Must have Elise turbo Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 62	"Hey I have friends who call a handyman every time they want to hang a picture. They're happy and that is fine but it's not what I do." Well, I wouldn't go that far. I've rebuilt plenty of engines, swapped trannies, and have torn suspensions out of cars and reworked them. I don't fear labor. But, metal working takes experience to get it right. I doubt any "one of those paintless dent repair guys" can repair that damage in 10-20 minutes. That's if they would even take it on. There are many jobs that they won't touch and I think this is one of them. They typically work with steel sheet metal and I wouldn't consider them to be "metal forming experts".

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