Oil change

[Bluenose]

Hi Everyone,

New to the forum, another recent convert to Lotus. Seen the post by the lad from Inverness, I stay not far from him in the Highlands.
Technical question if I may. Coming from a background of high powered Jap cars I was wondering what the conventional view was on the oil change procedure amongst the technically minded.

When I used to change the oil on my Evo I used to fill the filter until it was saturated then pull the plugs, disconnect the crank sensor to stop fuel and spark and cranked the engine until the pressure light went out replaced the plugs and started the engine. This gave the system a "non- load" purge ensuring no air locks. Just wondering if anyone does it this way particulary as the Exige appears to be mapped to fire at revs and given the additional plumbing involved in the twin oil cooler set-up.

I would be very interested to hear your views on it.

Many thanks.

Rob.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by Bluenose

Hi Everyone,

New to the forum, another recent convert to Lotus. Seen the post by the lad from Inverness, I stay not far from him in the Highlands.
Technical question if I may. Coming from a background of high powered Jap cars I was wondering what the conventional view was on the oil change procedure amongst the technically minded.

When I used to change the oil on my Evo I used to fill the filter until it was saturated then pull the plugs, disconnect the crank sensor to stop fuel and spark and cranked the engine until the pressure light went out replaced the plugs and started the engine. This gave the system a "non- load" purge ensuring no air locks. Just wondering if anyone does it this way particulary as the Exige appears to be mapped to fire at revs and given the additional plumbing involved in the twin oil cooler set-up.

I would be very interested to hear your views on it.

Many thanks.

Rob.

Don't think most folks make much attempt to fully purge the system, it's a given when draining oil that some old oil will be left in the oil coolers and their lines.

That may be the best case for oil changes more frequent than recommended by either Lotus or the synthetic oil manufacturers.

[TimMullen]

I usually pre-fill the filter (on all my cars), but that's about it. Starting the engine will bring up the oil pressure almost instantly. No need to crank the engine (without plugs) to bring up the oil pressure first (although I would do this on a new engine).

When you drain the oil for an oil change, you are getting the oil in the pan. The oil in the pump, the oil passages, the bearings, and elsewhere is still in place, just as when you go out to start your car in the morning. Pre-filling the filter does decrease the very small time that it takes for the pump to fill the filter before circulating the oil. Even that isn't a big concern, but I pre-fill the filter simply because it's trivial amount of extra effort.

The oil cooler(s) and lines will still contain oil - attempting to drain them is simply not worth the excessive effort to to that. When you drain the oil, the oil will stay in the cooler system. When you start the car, there is not time needed to prime the cooler system as it's already full. Additionally, there is a thermostat that controls the flow of oil into the oil cooler system, so there will be no oil flowing through it until the oil (and engine) is warmed up.

[Bluenose]

Thanks for the reply guys,

on your last point Tim is there a possibility that the thermostat will allow hot oil to drain and close the lines during the temperature drop ( while refilling) and thereby creating potential "air gaps" in the line or is the system self bleeding. Just trying to understand how it all works as it is new to me. I have heard of guys who refused to dry crank there STI's during an oil change only to be rewarded with damaged shells. Apparently the journals on the scooby are so narrow that any deficiency whatsoever caused damage.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by Bluenose

is there a possibility that the thermostat will allow hot oil to drain and close the lines during the temperature drop

Not really. The oil lines are essentially level, so it's not "downhill" at the oil filter adapter. When you change the oil and remove the filter, the oil doesn't drain from the coolers. Actually, if you were to want to drain the coolers, you have to disconnect them at the front - the process is in the manual so that you can drain things if something in the engine "blows up" and the oil is contaminated. Re-filling requires filling the coolers in front, then reconnecting the lines, etc. It's not a simple procedure, and not recommended unless absolutely needed.

[ThePerfectLine]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

The oil cooler(s) and lines will still contain oil - attempting to drain them is simply not worth the excessive effort to to that. When you drain the oil, the oil will stay in the cooler system. When you start the car, there is not time needed to prime the cooler system as it's already full. Additionally, there is a thermostat that controls the flow of oil into the oil cooler system, so there will be no oil flowing through it until the oil (and engine) is warmed up.

Ok, this sort of freaks me out, there has to be some way to do a REAL oil change.. I mean mixing 10% of your old oil with 90% new seems pretty darn cruddy to me. I am pretty anal when I do oil changes, I let the oil drip out for hours, and then run a half quart or more of fresh oil through the engine until I see it clear coming out the drain hole.

I also like to use the Amsoil oil cleaner once per 4 or 5 changes which basically turns the oil to the viscosity of water, and allows you to REALLY clean out your engine.

But if the oil coolers and associated lines are filled with the dirty oil, seems like you would be best served to do maybe 2 oil changes in rapid succession to try to get the old oil out. Maybe take the time to somehow empty the whole system, I suppose removing the oil coolers, and/or pressurizing the system to somehow get the oil through the lines back into the motor.

Does anyone have the same concerns I have?

[Mr. Know]

Originally Posted by ThePerfectLine

Ok, this sort of freaks me out, there has to be some way to do a REAL oil change.. I mean mixing 10% of your old oil with 90% new seems pretty darn cruddy to me. I am pretty anal when I do oil changes, I let the oil drip out for hours, and then run a half quart or more of fresh oil through the engine until I see it clear coming out the drain hole.

I also like to use the Amsoil oil cleaner once per 4 or 5 changes which basically turns the oil to the viscosity of water, and allows you to REALLY clean out your engine.

But if the oil coolers and associated lines are filled with the dirty oil, seems like you would be best served to do maybe 2 oil changes in rapid succession to try to get the old oil out. Maybe take the time to somehow empty the whole system, I suppose removing the oil coolers, and/or pressurizing the system to somehow get the oil through the lines back into the motor.

Does anyone have the same concerns I have?

I'd say that's a bit overboard for basically a Toyota engine. As long as you are following the maintenance schedule for oil changes, the amount left in the coolers and lines will not affect anything. However, if you take it too far...you might end up doing more harm than good.

[Monsi]

if you were adamant about flushing the oil out of the lines you could put in fresh oil and drive around the block a couple times and then drain it again and put it more fresh... but that would be rather wasteful and kinda pointless

[ThePerfectLine]

Originally Posted by Monsi

if you were adamant about flushing the oil out of the lines you could put in fresh oil and drive around the block a couple times and then drain it again and put it more fresh... but that would be rather wasteful and kinda pointless

I firmly believe the secret to an engine that can last forever is to always have fresh, clean oil in it, free of contaminates, not past its viscosity breakdown window, and not mixed with some of the old oil that has gunk in it, and might be well past its prime.

It just seems like a very bad design to always have half a quart of dirty oil in the car. To me that means you NEVER (except when the car is brand new) have truly clean oil in the air. Even if you change it and then drive around for 10 minutes and change it again, you still have SOME of the dirty oil still in the car.

Maybe its not a big deal, but since i have been wrenching on cars I ALWAYS let every last drop of old oil drain out before refilling, and I also like to use the Amsoil Engine Flush (AMSOIL - Engine Flush (AEF)). But I am scared if I use this there will be the broken down oil in the cooler and lines, and that will be seriously tough to get out!

[foosh]

Originally Posted by ThePerfectLine

I firmly believe the secret to an engine that can last forever is to always have fresh, clean oil in it, free of contaminates, not past its viscosity breakdown window, and not mixed with some of the old oil that has gunk in it, and might be well past its prime.

It just seems like a very bad design to always have half a quart of dirty oil in the car. To me that means you NEVER (except when the car is brand new) have truly clean oil in the air. Even if you change it and then drive around for 10 minutes and change it again, you still have SOME of the dirty oil still in the car.

Maybe its not a big deal, but since i have been wrenching on cars I ALWAYS let every last drop of old oil drain out before refilling, and I also like to use the Amsoil Engine Flush (AMSOIL - Engine Flush (AEF)). But I am scared if I use this there will be the broken down oil in the cooler and lines, and that will be seriously tough to get out!

And I firmly believe you are being incredibly obsessive/anal. I would bet anything that the small fraction of old oil left in the coolers won't make any difference whatsoever with regard to engine longevity.

It is NOT a big deal!

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by ThePerfectLine

I firmly believe the secret to an engine that can last forever is to always have fresh, clean oil in it, free of contaminates, not past its viscosity breakdown window, and not mixed with some of the old oil that has gunk in it, and might be well past its prime.

Unless you completely tear down an engine and hot tank it and re-assemble for every oil change, you will always have "old dirty oil" in the engine.

Originally Posted by ThePerfectLine

It just seems like a very bad design to always have half a quart of dirty oil in the car. To me that means you NEVER (except when the car is brand new) have truly clean oil in the air. Even if you change it and then drive around for 10 minutes and change it again, you still have SOME of the dirty oil still in the car.

Or you could look at it as the oil only gets half as dirty, since there is twice as much (not quite) oil in the system. If you do the math on it, yes, you have "dirty" oil after an oil change. But by the time you change your oil in the Elise, your oil is only half as dirty as it would be without the coolers. On average the oil is no more dirty with the cooler as it would be without them - actually slightly cleaner since the coolers aren't even half the oil volume.

Originally Posted by ThePerfectLine

Maybe its not a big deal, but since i have been wrenching on cars I ALWAYS let every last drop of old oil drain out before refilling, and I also like to use the Amsoil Engine Flush (AMSOIL - Engine Flush (AEF)). But I am scared if I use this there will be the broken down oil in the cooler and lines, and that will be seriously tough to get out!

If you have been putting an oil flush in you engine as part of every oil change, you have probably done much more damage to the engine's internals that you would have ever possibly done with the small amount of "dirty" oil in the engine.

As for the oil being "dirty" consider that it was just fine for the engine a few minutes prior to the oil change. As long as you are using a high quality oil and changing it regularly, there is not problem with any "left over" oil in the engine.

[foosh]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

If you have been putting an oil flush in you engine as part of every oil change, you have probably done much more damage to the engine's internals that you would have ever possibly done with the small amount of "dirty" oil in the engine.

Yes, I thought about mentioning this, but I just didn't have the heart.

[Monsi]

I know a guy who trades his vehicles in every 3-5 years... and he NEVER changes his oil... cause that would be "fixing someone elses problem"

scares the crap out of me... I hope no one ends up buying one of his old vehicle

but the point is if his engines survive for that long on the same oil it the little bit left over isnt gonna be a problem

[ThePerfectLine]

Originally Posted by foosh

Yes, I thought about mentioning this, but I just didn't have the heart.

I would never do it every oil change, I tend to do it every 15k-25k miles or so, and what I am concerned with with this whole topic is motor longevity. You can take filthy, disgusting, gnarly oil and put it in an engine with 10k miles on it and then run it for 3k miles and it will most definitely be OK. Its a almost brand new engine, and is at the very beginning of its life. But I am thinking 100k down the line, 200 track days later, and while having old oil in a motor will seldom have an immediately negative impact its kind of like smoking. Eat 3 steaks in 1 day, or even do it for 6 months, it wont have any immediate affect, but do it every day for your whole life, and there is a pretty good chance you are going to have yourself some problems. That's how I see oil, its like eating healthy, but for your motor!

Its also not like the engine will suddenly seize up 1 mile past at 100k just because you only changed your oil every 15k or 20k miles. But as parts start to wear, and things start to break (which inevitably WILL happen) having old, dirty, broken down oil running through the system throughout its life will definitely have an impact. I am not an engineer, but I have a close friend who is a chemist, and he has always drilled into my head the importance of having 'fully functioning" (as he calls it) oil in an engine. I have to say, he gets an obscene amount of miles from his automobiles before they start having problems, so I tend to listen to what he says. I also think that engines under normal load conditions driven lightly (such as 99% of all drivers on the roads) will be affected far less from dirty oil. But in my opinion high performance cars where you are constantly bringing the engine to the peak of its efficiency, temp, and RPM range will be affected by not having clean and uncontaminated oil in the system.

I just did some research, and the manual states that our engine holds 4.4 liters of oil and the oil cooler and lines leading to it hold 3.5 liters. It also states that the oil from the lines/cooler/s isn't drained out on an oil change. That's 56% in the engine and 44% in the oil cooler/lines.

Again, maybe I am alone here, but that's like going to get an oil change at Jiffy lube, and if your car takes 7 quarts telling them to only drain out 4, and to leave 3 quarts of old, dirty, broken down oil in the engine. That's ludicrous, never in a million years would someone WANT to leave that much of their old oil in.

I did some comparative analysis today of my oil BEFORE the change, FRESH oil, and then 20 miles AFTER the change. See what each looks like in this pic;



I also plan on sending the BEFORE oil (which most likely was about 5k miles worth of use) and the AFTER oil to BlackStone Labratories to see what they say about the oil.

So while I understand that this is the way oil changes go on Elises/Exiges and that everyone simply goes with the flow and swaps out 56% of their oil per change, it definitely bothers me, and unless I can find some already existing method for draining the whole system, I want to look into engineering some part and/or process to get it all out. Now understandably there is always some oil left in the motor itself, there isnt much you can do about that, I am OK with leaving up to maybe 5% of the old oil in all the nooks and crannies in there, its the 44% PLUS the potential 5% stuck in the motor that scares me!

[ThePerfectLine]

Originally Posted by Monsi

I know a guy who trades his vehicles in every 3-5 years... and he NEVER changes his oil... cause that would be "fixing someone elses problem"

scares the crap out of me... I hope no one ends up buying one of his old vehicle

but the point is if his engines survive for that long on the same oil it the little bit left over isnt gonna be a problem

A brand new engine can survive 3 years without the oil being changed, for sure. But in 100k miles will that engine be in as good a shape as if your buddy changed the oil (all of it) every 3k miles religiously? I seriously doubt it, I would actually be willing to say that it will for certain be damaged goods. I would LOVE to get some of the oil from your buddies car right before he returns it and send it in for analysis, I bet the people at BlackStone would love to see oil that was so far gone!

[LordZ]

Remove your oil coolers, problem solved.

[foosh]

Rodg,

I hope you can find a way to relax and sleep well at night. Methinks you worry way too much about things that really don't matter very much.

Peace.

[ThePerfectLine]

Originally Posted by foosh

Rodg,

I hope you can find a way to relax and sleep well at night. Methinks you worry way too much about things that really don't matter very much.

Peace.

I honestly can't believe you guys make light of it. You mean to tell me that you think all cars should only do a 50% oil change every time, and that wont lead to premature engine failure? In your other cars do you only replace half the oil?

Obviously oil coolers are important, I think they make a big difference on cars that are really driven hard for extended periods of time, such as track driving. I haven't bought/installed my Oil Temp gauge yet, but I have a feeling that the under average conditions and being driven in the average fashion you probably don't even need the oil cooler. But I am going to be tracking my car, and I always have an eye out for my oil Temp and Oil Pressure, and have many times pulled in early in a session because my oil temp was getting high enough that I was starting to worry. This is pretty common, track junkies being anal about their fluids in their car that is. Because on the track bad lubrication can quickly turn into blown/seized/overstressed/overheated/bent/destroyed parts. I have seen it LOTS of times.

More power to ya if you don't care, definitely makes it easier for you to change oil, but everything I am saying matters, to me anyway. A properly lubricated crank case matters to me. If it didn't I wouldn't bother with oil at all, I would just take it to Jiffy Lube and have em put in whatever was on sale with the cheapest filter they have. Nor would any of the millions of people who pay $9 a quart for oil, or drive out of their way to pick up Redline or Swepco or Amsoil because studies show it is marginally better than your average AutoZone synthetics (Havoline, Valvoline, Shell, Mobil1, Castrol, etc.), there HAS to be a reason people ALWAYS list in their car sales that they change the oil regularly, and with high end Oil and Filters. If it "doesn't matter" I am wondering why everyone cares about it.

I am not belligerent, not at all, I am just stymied and amazed that from what I can tell no Lotus owners seem to care about it, whereas every other group of car fanatics I know (who are mostly track junkies) are SUPER anal about of their oil.

[ZAMMY1]

as you say the word "fanatics", keep it in mind.
also you should drain the heater core every 3 to 6 months when you change the coolant.
there's nothing wrong with changing oil however you wish and whenever you wish. you don't need to defend it.
there ARE things, such as diminishing returns, that may make the details you are addressing, irrevelant to the engine's life.
this is/should be a "car", not a religion.
yes, it's a great "car" but not with an exotic, irreplaceable powertrain. that's one of the beauties of the elise/exige.
my best, sam

[Bluenose]

Hi Rodg,

Sent you a private message this morning and hope you got it. I know where you are coming from with the oil change issues and I agree with you but it really is a huge hassle. Think about more frequent changes as a way of mitigating the contamination issue. On the point of the flush, this is one thing if you don't mind me saying that I would never do. Even a residual spoonful post change would affect the lubricating quality of your oil.
If you have been astute in the past by letting it drain completely, and it sounds as if you have, I would not do this again. I know every opinion is different but the principal behind a flush could be detrimental in this circumstance. I think these products gained some popularity with the " sticking valve syndrome" but someone like yourself that obviously cares about the engine doesn't need to worry about it.

Hope this helps,

Rob.