Autoweek Article

[shinoo]

Originally posted by tidalwdave
I was wanting a more raw sports car, but they are making the Elise too much like a daily driver.

That is what you will get. Fear not. I don't even think it is a remote possibility that the Elise will be softer than an S2k.

[JonOrangeElise]

Originally posted by tidalwdave
I hear ya. Yeah, the more I've been reading, this car sounds like it's getting very soft. If it ends up coming out and being a softer ride than my S2K, I'm not going to sell the S2K for the Elise. I was wanting a more raw sports car, but they are making the Elise too much like a daily driver.

I don't want to pick directly on the above poster (his quote is just a good example) but I do want to make some points to everyone who nitpicks every single "softening" move made by Lotus in the Federal car (so I'm responding to folks on this board; folks on Roadfly; folks on the official Lotus board):

By all accounts from every journalst who has ever written about the Federal Elise prototype, it is the rawest, most purpose-built car that will be in the US next year -- certainly more raw than what all of us are used to in daily drivers (for me an M3; for others S2000s, Miatas, and Boxters... and for one guy here, a TT, which really is just a nice looking, somewhat sporty coupe by most journalists' accounts). So isn't it sort of silly to waste so much mental energy on what will probably be very insignificant changes in the big scheme of the Elise driving experience?

99 percent of us have no baseline impression of what the "real" Elise is "supposed to" drive like? And it's for this very reason that I'm not worried. This car will be more than 1100 pounds lighter than what I am currently driving!!!! (And 800 pounds lighter than an S2000). Relative engine power notwithstanding, this alone will have an INCREDIBLE effect on driving dynamics: steering feel, setting up turns, loading/unloading, etc. Adding a few pounds for a radio and cargo netting really won't make that much difference, IMHO.

In fact, our own body weights are what we *really* should be worried about. I'm about 180, but I should be 165. That's 15 pounds that I have direct control over.

Same goes for suspension changes made in the Federal car. How much will they *really* affect track times? How much will they *really* affect the driving experience? I don't think it behooves Lotus to "ruin" the car's core purpose and reputation, so I'm not worried. I'm actually more concerned about the durability of the suspension. In other words, I'd rather have non-worn, non-cracked "soft" bushings than worn, cracked hard bushings on the track.

I look at it this way: I'm getting a car that will be many levels more purpose-built than anything I have ever driven before. Could it be a little bit lighter if it dropped some amenities? Sure. But I don't have such great faifth in my driving skills (I have just three schools under my belt) to believe that I am faster than the car. Maybe I'm in the monority here; I don't know. Maybe everyone who posts online is planning to use the Elise in competition.

But my suspicion is that most of the people on these three message boards will be blown away by the Federal car, and that more productive energy would be spent on driver's education than grousing about what will likely be very acceptable design changes in the big scheme of Elisedom.

[zvezdah1]

Spoke with Arnie J. yesterday.

I'm still as thrilled now about what we're getting (more even?) than I was a year ago.

Everyone experiencing the US cars (from Lotus engineers to journalists to regular people) have been absolutely thrilled by this car.

It's going to make such a splash at the LA show!!!!

Chris
"countin' the days now"

[CO_NYer]

Originally posted by JonM3Coupe
I don't want to pick directly on the above poster (his quote is just a good example) but I do want to make some points to everyone who nitpicks every single "softening" move made by Lotus in the Federal car (so I'm responding to folks on this board; folks on Roadfly; folks on the official Lotus board):

By all accounts from every journalst who has ever written about the Federal Elise prototype, it is the rawest, most purpose-built car that will be in the US next year -- certainly more raw than what all of us are used to in daily drivers (for me an M3; for others S2000s, Miatas, and Boxters... and for one guy here, a TT, which really is just a nice looking, somewhat sporty coupe by most journalists' accounts). So isn't it sort of silly to waste so much mental energy on what will probably be very insignificant changes in the big scheme of the Elise driving experience?

99 percent of us have no baseline impression of what the "real" Elise is "supposed to" drive like? And it's for this very reason that I'm not worried. This car will be more than 1100 pounds lighter than what I am currently driving!!!! (And 800 pounds lighter than an S2000). Relative engine power notwithstanding, this alone will have an INCREDIBLE effect on driving dynamics: steering feel, setting up turns, loading/unloading, etc. Adding a few pounds for a radio and cargo netting really won't make that much difference, IMHO.

In fact, our own body weights are what we *really* should be worried about. I'm about 180, but I should be 165. That's 15 pounds that I have direct control over.

Same goes for suspension changes made in the Federal car. How much will they *really* affect track times? How much will they *really* affect the driving experience? I don't think it behooves Lotus to "ruin" the car's core purpose and reputation, so I'm not worried. I'm actually more concerned about the durability of the suspension. In other words, I'd rather have non-worn, non-cracked "soft" bushings than worn, cracked hard bushings on the track.

I look at it this way: I'm getting a car that will be many levels more purpose-built than anything I have ever driven before. Could it be a little bit lighter if it dropped some amenities? Sure. But I don't have such great faifth in my driving skills (I have just three schools under my belt) to believe that I am faster than the car. Maybe I'm in the monority here; I don't know. Maybe everyone who posts online is planning to use the Elise in competition.

But my suspicion is that most of the people on these three message boards will be blown away by the Federal car, and that more productive energy would be spent on driver's education than grousing about what will likely be very acceptable design changes in the big scheme of Elisedom.

I could not agree more or have said it better myself. I believe this car will be better on a track than any other production stock car remotely near its price range. And this car will probably be solidly better than most cars costing double and triple what the Elise costs. This is a Lotus. Lotus talking about "softening" a car is different than Honda or Dodge saying it.

And the best thing about it to me is when I take it to the track I will love the drive there and the drive on the track.

[tidalwdave]

Originally posted by JonM3Coupe
I don't want to pick directly on the above poster (his quote is just a good example) but I do want to make some points to everyone who nitpicks every single "softening" move made by Lotus in the Federal car (so I'm responding to folks on this board; folks on Roadfly; folks on the official Lotus board):

Ah, making an example out of me huh? The Fed. car, though I haven't driven it, is by word of mouth a softer car then the Euro one. I did drive the Euro spec car btw. Took it to an empty parking lot and made it into an autocross course. So, I did get a good feel for the lighter, more raw car. I've been into the Elise for a long time, due to it's rawness. While the Fed. may be faster and actually handle better, I'm wanting to really FEEL the road.

I'm sure this is a better handling car in every way, but I still feel that it isn't going to be as "raw" as I was hoping when I first got into the Elise.

You are probably right though, Lotus softening up the Elise is different than what Honda did to the 04 S2000.

I'll wait until the real reviews of an actual Fed. production car, and wait until I drive a US demo before I make my mind up. I want a very different drive than the S2K. It has to be different to get me to sell my car at a loss and buy an Elise at 40K.

I'm wanting to autocross my car, so I'd like more feel for the surface. In that same breath though, I want to use my car for some road trips. Hopefully what Lotus is doing will be the happy medium I'm looking for. I can handle the rough rides, but my wife isn't too happy about it.

[strawtarget]

Originally posted by JonM3Coupe
So isn't it sort of silly to waste so much mental energy on what will probably be very insignificant changes in the big scheme of the Elise driving experience?

[...]

Same goes for suspension changes made in the Federal car. How much will they *really* affect track times? How much will they *really* affect the driving experience? I don't think it behooves Lotus to "ruin" the car's core purpose and reputation, so I'm not worried.

That's just it. I can forsee it making a real, significant change in the driving experience. It sure did in my TT. I'm not trying to say that the TT was ever anything other than a nice sporty coupe, but the larger/softer bushings changed the character of the car significantly, and for the worse. From my point of view.

Did it behoove Audi to do this? Well, it ticked off the enthusiasts quite a bit, but the vast majority of buyers didn't care. The liability and comfort concerns were stronger, so perhaps it did behoove Audi. And it could behoove Lotus to bow to the same concerns. I'm not saying that Lotus would bow to those concerns to the same degree, but I think it WOULD behoove them to give a little bit. Just a few ticks more on the comfort dial. I sure don't want them to, and the majority on this forum don't want them to, but I betcha the majority of potential buyers do. They don't ruin the car's core purpose by doing this, but they do dilute it just a little bit.

99 percent of us have no baseline impression of what the "real" Elise is "supposed to" drive like?

I'm not sure that's correct. Many of us have driven one for various lengths of time under various conditions. The rest of us have all read what others (other posters, magazines, etc) have had to say. One of the car's most prized assets is the steering feel. Bushings deaden steering feel. Autoweek used the word "isolation". I dunno... how much steering feel are you willing to give up?

I like the steering feel of the Euro car, and I wouldn't want it changed.

Also, note that I started this bushings tangent as a concerned question, qualified with such language as "I guess I might be overreacting". In my personal experience, bushings can make a big difference, and I think I'm justified in my worry on this matter.

[MotorCade]

If the bushings suck, I'm going to swap them for firmer ones. If that bumps me up to ASP, so be it. If so, I'll go ahead and start making other mods to the car as well. I mean, really... autocross is a blast, and it's good to be competitive, but I'd rather have the car the way I like it all the time instead of worrying about keeping it within a certain class for the weekend autox.

Cade

[JonOrangeElise]

Hey, I will certainly concede that suspension changes can make a difference. And, hey, in lieu of actually having any Elises to drive, I'll concede that it's fun to write about them online -- so I actually appreciate the debate and hypothesizing.

But I do think it's possible to obsess too much over problems that may never see fruition.

A quick word about the TT and Boxter: I live in Noe Valley in San Francisco. I figure it has to be the TT/Boxter capital of America. Literally at least one TT or Boxter parked on every block.

My neighbors are well-off young people (much like myself). I can almost gaurantee you that they bought their cars for their beautiful styling, and not for their handling. (Too bad, because I hear the Boster is incredibly well-balanced.) These are people who care just enough about image to buy a hot marquee, but not enough about driving to even consider steering feel around an apex.

So it's perfectly understandable that car companies (or at least Audi) would sacrifice steering feel for their core customer base. Heck, Audi would be negligent if it DIDN'T serve its customers this way.

But we are talking about Lotus for God's Sake!!! If Lotus screwed up the Elise to TT-like levels, it would go down as the automotive faux pas of the decade. Reaction from its British diehard (poking fun at us Yanks) would be detrimental enough to hurt British sales, let alone American sales. After all, if any part of a sports marquee's reputation is tainted, the whole marquee suffers. (Witness the Porshce Cayenne -- some speculate the Carerra GT is actually a compensatory move by Porche to prove that it's still a real sports car company.)

Right now, I have mentally positioned myself for the touring package, and I do not see myself getting the LSS, mostly because I don't want to wait, and I don't think I need it. But what I *am* concerned about (and this would make a good topic for another thread) is that the special compound Yoko tires are only available with the LSS. The Autoweek article would suggest as much. Now, tires do make a HUGE difference, and I want the best.

So do we have any clear word on which packages get which tires?

[zvezdah1]

A bit off topic,
Wallabyguy, please contact me off list.

Chris
zvezdah1@knology.net

[gotapex]

Originally posted by strawtarget
Did it behoove Audi to do this? Well, it ticked off the enthusiasts quite a bit, but the vast majority of buyers didn't care. The liability and comfort concerns were stronger, so perhaps it did behoove Audi. And it could behoove Lotus to bow to the same concerns. I'm not saying that Lotus would bow to those concerns to the same degree, but I think it WOULD behoove them to give a little bit. Just a few ticks more on the comfort dial. I sure don't want them to, and the majority on this forum don't want them to, but I betcha the majority of potential buyers do. They don't ruin the car's core purpose by doing this, but they do dilute it just a little bit.

A little off topic, but I've never seen the word "behoove" used so many times in 1 paragraph. That's awesome in a weird sort of way.

[scot]

If the car is not 100% as fun as the european elise I drove, I will not buy the car. End of story. I refuse to support any company who believes we, as americans, are anything other than serious when it comes to our cars.

Scot

Any excuse about american roads is total BS, are european roads better than US? I think not.

[wallabyguy]

A suggestion to Scot and others of you who are in the midst of a nervous breakdown over the POSSIBILITY that the US car is not up to the standard set by the European car........................................

BREATHE

There is no factual basis for your upset. No one has said the car is soft. Changed from the european model. Yes. But you need to remember that changes to the suspension which one might assume are to soften the car may actually be to compensate for the additional weight and power. If you take note of most Lotus road cars over the past 30 years, you will notice that the suspensions are "soft" when compared to the competition, yet somehow the cars seem to out handle their rivals. The secret is chassis engineering.

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that the US car is heavier, is better equipped and, hold on to your seat, a better car than it's European counterpart. This applies not only to "comfort" features, but also from a performance stand point. The US car has better road manners and track performance than not only the European S2, but the S1 Exige and 190 as well.

Just sit back, relax, and wait until early May when the dealer demos arrive and see for yourself. In the meantime, relax and keep your hair.

[scot]

I am personally relaxed. I just want to make sure if lotus is reading this they understand where we as lotus followers stand. We are not lemmings and we will not be told something is good if its just the "american version."

While I agree a different suspension setup is due for the weight change, the term "softer" has nothing to do with different. Even with the change in weight, the feeling should be the same as the euro car. The reviews so far HAVE stated that it is softer. Maybe they just mean its sprung lighter with different valving but the overall feel is similar for the new engine, but then again maybe they mean the rebound is turned down a bit to deal with american potholes.

That I would have an issue with.

[Derek]

Originally posted by scot
I am personally relaxed. I just want to make sure if lotus is reading this they understand where we as lotus followers stand. We are not lemmings and we will not be told something is good if its just the "american version."

While I agree a different suspension setup is due for the weight change, the term "softer" has nothing to do with different. Even with the change in weight, the feeling should be the same as the euro car. The reviews so far HAVE stated that it is softer. Maybe they just mean its sprung lighter with different valving but the overall feel is similar for the new engine, but then again maybe they mean the rebound is turned down a bit to deal with american potholes.

That I would have an issue with.

Who cares... ? If it sucks buy something else. I don't know where so many people are hearing that this car is soft. I haven't heard that it's soft. Please post the link to this article that called the Liz "soft"

Road & Track said

The non-boosted rack-and-pinion steering is reactive and quick, and the entire chassis seems to foresee your intentions. Turn-in response is immediate and amazingly crisp. Its balance through virtually all corners is flawless. Fling it from side to side, and the only thing that'll become unsettled is your stomach.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....ber=5&preview=

Wow sounds like they hated it doesn't it

[jml1952]

I think some people have too much time on their hands and like to worry. Everyone who has driven the US version says that it's the best Elise ever. That's good enough for me. Even if it was somehow "softer" than the Euro-spec version, who cares? Be grateful that we are getting the opportunity to buy a Lotus. It's going to be a great car. But it's not being designed as a custom fit for what each of us may want. If it doesn't measure up to your expectations, feel free to move on to something else. Or go build your own car from scratch. Or keep your S2000, Boxster, TT, Z4, etc., etc. But, please, stop whining about the supposed shortcomings of a car that you haven't seen or driven yet.

[Randy Chase]

Think it is too soft? Get LSS.

Still think it's too soft? Upgrade to Penske or Mouton style adjustable struts and crank up the settings.

Stiffer is not automatically faster. If you do enough suspension tuning, you know that you have to find that sweet spot that works with the car. Too stiff and the car skitters around corners and does not plant well.

[tidalwdave]

Originally posted by jml1952
I think some people have too much time on their hands and like to worry. Everyone who has driven the US version says that it's the best Elise ever. That's good enough for me. Even if it was somehow "softer" than the Euro-spec version, who cares? Be grateful that we are getting the opportunity to buy a Lotus. It's going to be a great car. But it's not being designed as a custom fit for what each of us may want. If it doesn't measure up to your expectations, feel free to move on to something else. Or go build your own car from scratch. Or keep your S2000, Boxster, TT, Z4, etc., etc. But, please, stop whining about the supposed shortcomings of a car that you haven't seen or driven yet.

Who are you to tell people to not complain if they fell that a car they have waited years for is changing from the car they wanted. Maybe those of us with S2000s, Boxsters, TT, etc. wanted something different to come along. While I'm sure the Elise is still a great car, I want it to be all that I've read and driven in the Euro car. I was "feeling free to move on" to something else. I have the S2000 and am planning on moving to the Elise.

This forum is to vent your feelings negative and positive about the coming Elise. Don't tell people to stop whining. I don't think that's what we are doing. We are just stating our feelings. If you don't like it, don't read it.

I for one am not to go by just what magazine articles say. You say everyone says the US Elise is better....Well, that would be basically writers for car magazines. Also, there is no "real" Federal Elise out yet. So how does anyone know.

My bottom line is that some of us have waited and followed the Elise for awhile. We already have the S2000, the TT, the Boxster. We are looking for the next level. If you haven't come across the links to the articles that say the Elise is a softer car (maybe not that exact term, but same meaning), maybe you should do your research more. I'm not going to go digging through the posts and reviews to find you the wording. Do it your self.

I'm not putting down the Elise in any way. I hope to buy one and have my money on one now. But it has to be vastly different than my current car to persuade me to make the trade.

Sorry for the rant, but someone telling me to shut up on my feelings for the changes have made me mad. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck and hear about the Elise. I've known about it and liked how raw this car was. That and how light it was. That has changed for the Fed. car. Maybe in a good way overall, but I'll have to drive it to find out. I don't go by specs or what the magazines say...I go by what I feel when I drive it.

My money is still on the Elise, but it's changing very much. What "everyone else says" isn't good enough for me. It's what I say and feel that matters. I'm my own person with my own opinions.

[zvezdah1]

Tidal,
Magazine writers are NOT the only ones saying how great the US car is, ALL the people I know (not including Lotus people) that have driven one of the test cars are thrilled by it's performance. Certainly, Roy and Andy Barron who both spend a lot of time on the track (Roy has an Exige, and Andy a seven and S1 Elise) were thrilled by the car and very impressed.

Even a softer Elise is far more performance car than anything else straight from the manufacturer approaching this price range.

The car IS vastly different than a Boxster or S2000., wait until you drive one (US car) you'll see.

Chris

[tidalwdave]

Originally posted by zvezdah1
Tidal,
Magazine writers are NOT the only ones saying how great the US car is, ALL the people I know (not including Lotus people) that have driven one of the test cars are thrilled by it's performance. Certainly, Roy and Andy Barron who both spend a lot of time on the track (Roy has an Exige, and Andy a seven and S1 Elise) were thrilled by the car and very impressed.

Even a softer Elise is far more performance car than anything else straight from the manufacturer approaching this price range.

The car IS vastly different than a Boxster or S2000., wait until you drive one (US car) you'll see.

Chris

Okay, I had a bad day at work yestday, so I was a bit grumpy when I got home. Sorry to have gone off on a rant.

I love you guys. In a manly sort of way.

[strawtarget]

A hypothetical "GT Car" with dulled turn-in due to "sneeze factor" bushings and softer suspension can turn absolutely fantastic lap times in the hands of a capable driver.

The issue with the bushings and general softness isn't just lap times. It's road feel and steering feel. Larger bushings designed to isolate you from road imperfections will do their job, and effectively make for a more refined feel by isolating you from some road harshness. This comes at a cost... you no longer get the same quality or quantity of information through the steering wheel. The Top Gear guy might no longer be able to tell if it was a beetle or a spider. Is that what you want in the Elise?

I'm with 'tidalwdave' on this one. I've been pining for the Elise for a long time. I want it for its immediate steering response and direct road feel. To read that these things might be slightly dulled for a US version is disheartening. There are plenty of fast, refined cars available. There are very few fast, pure cars available. The steering in a kart is so direct that the palms of my hands sting after driving one for 20 minutes. The Euro Elise is the car that's the closest to that feeling. I'm not saying I want my hands to sting after a 30 minute trip in the Elise. I'm saying that I want direct, undulled steering feel in the US Car, and I realize that there are comfort tradeoffs associated with that. I'm willing to pay them.

If LSS comes with Euro-spec suspension bushings, I'll be a very happy camper.