SVAG: The EliseTalkers List (is anyone missing or missing info?)

[suv_bait]

Well, I did not get a call back from the manager yesterday, so I called during lunch today.

Based on everything positive I have heard about SVAG so far, this seemed like an episode of the twilight zone... but I assure you this all just happened to the very best of my rememberance.

I have taken a little bit of time to calm down, but this is what just transpired over the phone. Those of you who have met me I think know I'm a fairly calm, down-to-earth guy and I think I can be fairly polite and calm when speaking to people, even if about a difficult manner.

I called Dominick and told him the manager - Mark - did not call me back. Dominick agreed to transfer me.

Long story short, I ask why my "refundable" deposit is not being returned. Mark's answer - deposit is refundable - AFTER we sell your car.

"Ok" I say. "But my car was supposed to be here last June. Who knows when it will show up... you essentially have an open-ended arrangement to keep my money forever... you have given me no VIN, no purchase order, no invoice, no paperwork of any kind... how would even know when *my* car has come in?"

Mark: "Your beef is with Lotus... not us"

Me: "Ok, so you're asking $10k over sticker for cars you have on the lot, you have ~150 people behind me in line, yet you won't give me my money back on my REFUNDABLE deposit?"

Mark: "Nope. You picked a color, we ordered it. "

Me: "But my salesman Jerry told me the deposit was refundable and never said anything about that status changing."

Mark: (and I swear he said this): "Who cares? We've got your money"

Me: "Ok, well, if you're going to play hardball, I guess I will have to call the Better Business Bureau to protect my consumer rights, and maybe I have to have a lawyer write you folks a letter as well"

Mark: "Who cares? We've got your money now. Besides as you said, there's no paperwork. Who has a record of it?"

I'm a bit shaken by now.

Me: "Ok, Mark, well I guess this is fair warning that I will at the very least be contesting these charges with my credit card company"

Mark: "So what, we have your money" (this response is coming to be a theme.

At this point I was just struck dumb. There was a bit of a pause on the line when finally Mark piped up:

Mark: "Do not ever come to this dealership again!" (Then he hung up.)

Well, I'm not sure what to make of all of this. This isn't the SVAG that everyone has been raving about, and after this last line you can bet I'll take his advice and never set foot in SVAG ever again.

I'll be posting this in the dealer forum as well and welcome all comments as to how I might have handled this better or what I should do now. I haven't called my credit card company yet, but plan to this afternoon.

I may also write a letter to Lotus USA advising them of my situation and letting them know SVAG's attitude may be a clear indication that they are "padding" their deposit holder list to try to get more allocation.

The only "take away" I have from this is that SVAG must be expecting a MAJOR market adjustment or I can't imagine why they'd be so obstinant about returning a deposit on a car one would think they'd just mark up $5-10k and sell off the lot.

- John, persona-non-grata at SVAG

[nickt]

I think the relevant section of the CA vehicle code is 11736(c).

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d05/vc11736.htm

11736. It is unlawful for any dealer licensed under this article to do any of the following when brokering a retail sale:

[...]

2 (c) Fail to refund any purchase money, including purchase deposits, upon demand by a consumer at any time prior to the consumer's signing of a vehicle purchase agreement with a selling dealer and taking delivery of the vehicle described in the brokering agreement.

[though this may apply to "autobrokers" not dealers - it's not entirely clear to me since ianal. can anyone else come up with a better reference, since I keep reading that vehicle deposits in CA are 100% refundable?]

[All I found so far is http://public.findlaw.com/newcontent...aw/chp9_b.html which says there must be cancellation provisions in the contract you sign. Were there?]

[suv_bait]

Thanks Mark... though it sounds like I will probably have to hire a lawyer if the credit card contest doesn't go through, since $4k is past the limit for small claims in CA, I believe.

I actually feel somewhat lucky this happened. I can't imagine I was actually thinking of buying a car from someone who told me never to set foot in his dealership again after I calmly asked for my money back.

Wow. I'm still in shock that I was treated this way by a dealership everyone has said was so good.

- John

[agent.5]

small claim limit is 5K in CA

http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/small_claims/file.htm

[suv_bait]

Oh, thanks. You guys are great. I thought it was $3k. Hmm, never been to small claims court before. Isn't there some mechanism by which the claimant can demand a normal hearing with lawyers (as a way of scaring away little pipsqueaks like me)?

I know it would defeat the purpose, but I've heard of it being done. Thanks again for all the info & advice...

Best,
John

[raggedy1]

I've only used small claims once when I had to go after a tint shop for damaging my window. It was a pretty painless and quick process actually. Sorry, don't know about your specific question regarding lawyers...

[agent.5]

Not sure about small claim procedures. Of course, in the regular Superior Court, lawyers talk to each other to settle the case. I suggest you do some research; but if I have to guess, I will not worry about it too much, because the objective of small claim court is to limit lawyer involvement to save money for both sides. I doubt SVAG really want to spend $3000 in lawyer fee so it can keep your $4K deposit.

Originally Posted by suv_bait

Oh, thanks. You guys are great. I thought it was $3k. Hmm, never been to small claims court before. Isn't there some mechanism by which the claimant can demand a normal hearing with lawyers (as a way of scaring away little pipsqueaks like me)?

I know it would defeat the purpose, but I've heard of it being done. Thanks again for all the info & advice...

Best,
John

[suv_bait]

Well, small update. Mark Reeve just called me up and said I was calling him a liar. I asked specifically how he thought I was misrepresenting our conversation.

He said that I was accusing him of "padding" his deposit list. As you can see above, that's a bit of a stretch; though I told him I do think his not returning a deposit to a low-list holder is evidence that the 150+ people supposedly in line behind me might not be the throng of frothy-mouthed buyers that he is trying to convince Lotus they are.

In fairness he then admitted "When your car shows up I'll have it sold in 5 minutes" - pretty much his exact words.

Me: "Well then why won't you just give me my deposit back right now and we'll both be happy?"

Mark: "It's the principle of the matter. You picked a color, now you have to wait for it to come in... and once it does come in I will absolutely refund your money."

(Note this is different from what he said two hours ago: that he would refund me the money if and when the car sold.)

Me: "Ok; though, I think the State of California might have a different policy on this sort of matter and I think they might hold jurisdiction."

Mark: "Well that's my policy."

Mark, I don't mean to call you a liar or misrepresent you in any way. I have tried to draw a clear line between fact and my own conjecture. In any case it is apparent that you read this forum, so please do feel free to pipe in with your own $0.02, or to counter anything I have said so far.

Thanks everyone once again for your advice so far...

Best,
John

[MattG]

John,

I see two issues here. One, the conversations between you and Mark (what was said and how it was said). I'd rather not get involved with that one. Second issue is getting your deposit back.

I believe it's not unusual (among Elise dealers) for a deposit to become nonrefundable once you've finalized your order (color, options, etc). It's not unreasonable; just imagine what would happen if someone ordered Aubergine Purple with a blue interior, hard top, and sport pack? Or, Azec Bronze with biscuit interior? It'd be a $50k eyesore that would take months to leave their lot, even in this market. The fact that they're offering you a way to get your deposit back is a good thing.

[MattG]

Just noticed that Mark posted a response to this issue in this thread:
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...844#post155844

[JediMindGamez]

Hey i have a chance to move up the list with an eta of summer...however iono if i can afford the car by then but im sure i'll be able to afford it by winter of next year...if i move up the list and for some reason lotus is on time...will it be possible to move back like 10 spots?

[raggedy1]

tony i responded with my opinion in the other thread regarding the age requirement to buy an Elise.

You seem like a smart guy. This would not be a smart purchase for you. Going to school full-time and working two jobs to pay for a car is not wise. Stay in school, buy a nicely used and reliable piece of transportation (accord/camry) and get the Elise in a few years. There will be plenty of nicely used examples available at a much cheaper price than what you'll be dishing out for a new Elise.

Stay a part of the Elise community. You looked like you had a great time yesterday and you'll always be welcomed back. Of course I was relegated to another table so I don't know what conversations took place! At least the Fish&Chips were good....

[rolandchen]

I got my $2000 refund back from SVAG, #90+ on their list.
Reasons:
(1) It may be "the 3rd" price increase when my order date arrive (will be 2006 model)
(2) Maintenance cost is high ($245 for oil change!)
(3) Very expensive body repair cost ($9000 to 18000 posted on this forum)
(4) to avoid body damage you have to drive on good roads
(5) I see many Elise owners selling their cars in short ownership with big lost.
But I still like the car

[SouL]

So does this mean you've dropped the idea of getting the car all together?

I think people are selling the car because:

(no offense to the people who have sold their car)
They want to take advantage of the market and gain a profit from it.
They realised that the car is far too impractical for their personal needs.
They had the wrong expectations from the car.

[doma]

>Of course I was relegated to another table so I don't
>know what conversations took place!

We were all talking about you guys and wondering why you two wouldn't just pull up another small table and turn the long chain of square tables into an 'L'. Figgured you didn't like us.

[raggedy1]

Originally Posted by doma

>Of course I was relegated to another table so I don't
>know what conversations took place!

We were all talking about you guys and wondering why you two wouldn't just pull up another small table and turn the long chain of square tables into an 'L'. Figgured you didn't like us.

hey Dom,
Is this a quote for me regarding the last meet/drive??? I don't recall it making to this thread if it is directed towards me.
I didn't see any other tables that we could move over. The room was otherwise full so we sat at the only open seating - the bar.
We'll be sure to sit down early next time!

btw, finally over 600 miles and dipped into the upper rev ranges. WOW.

[abechen]

Originally Posted by rolandchen

I got my $2000 refund back from SVAG, #90+ on their list.
Reasons:
(1) It may be "the 3rd" price increase when my order date arrive (will be 2006 model)
(2) Maintenance cost is high ($245 for oil change!)
(3) Very expensive body repair cost ($9000 to 18000 posted on this forum)
(4) to avoid body damage you have to drive on good roads
(5) I see many Elise owners selling their cars in short ownership with big lost.
But I still like the car

Roland,

I also withdrew my deposit from SVAG and ended up purchasing one in perfect shape with 600 miles on it for $3000 under current MSRP. Look around, don't give up. Do what I did, buy from Ebay. The car is well worth it.
I also had the same dilema that you did but I was worst off being #160+ on their list. If I had waited the MSRP probably would have gone up at least another two times at this rate.
In regards to body damage, that is what insurance is for. Drive safely, Avoid dangerious situations. Get Star Shield or another type of protective film to avoid damage from small rocks is a must.
If you don't want to pay 245 dollars for a oil change, you could always do it yourself, take it to a non dealer service department. Maybe even take it to a Toyota Mech for regular engine maintence.
In regards to other owners selling their cars, I have to agree with Soul. This car is full of compromises that are well worth it to some but not everyone.

[doma]

>hey Dom,
>Is this a quote for me regarding the last
>meet/drive??? I don't recall it making to
>this thread if it is directed towards me.

Oops. Sounds like I completely misunderstood your post above. Nevermind

[SouL]

Originally Posted by abechen

Roland,

I also withdrew my deposit from SVAG and ended up purchasing one in perfect shape with 600 miles on it for $3000 under current MSRP.

Congrats!

[seanpham]

How's everyone doing? Some update, I was given a call last thursday 2-24-05 and spec out my car over the phone.