Locals, what SC/Turbo kit would you prefer

[PECivil]

More questions for the experts....

Does anybody have any longevity with these systems?

How much boost do they run?

Are internals being rebuilt? compression ratios getting dropped?

Is the systems management written in software or do they resort to tricks such as rising rate fuel pressure regulators? Larger Injectors?

I know, do a search. I will in the FI section

didnt mean to hyjack

[Evil Twin]

If you're planning on tracking the car and are considering a turbo kit, I'd strongly suggest you find other Lotus owners who have tread the path you're about to follow. Having turbocharged a relatively high-strung motor in my last track car, I can tell you that the track is the best proving ground for whether something will really work and last, and -- in my experience -- it's a lot harder to get a motor designed to run NA to last with a turbo bolted on than with a supercharger. Moreover, fuel tuning for a turbo is an order of magnitude more complicated and you can spend forever (and a ton of money) sorting out the timing and injector duty cycle maps. My two cents. I'm sure others have their own opinions.

Twin

[charliex]

Originally Posted by PECivil

More questions for the experts....

Does anybody have any longevity with these systems?

kits been running now for over two years now, lots of track cars, maybe 200+ installs.

How much boost do they run?

6.5 to 8.5 PSI is normal, stock internals are only good for upto 10lbs, beyond that you'll blow the stock motor, but before you hit that, the clutch and fuel pump give out, after that you might run into transmission issues.

Are internals being rebuilt? compression ratios getting dropped?

comptec have built and dropped compression ratios for some of the cars i've worked on.

Is the systems management written in software or do they resort to tricks such as rising rate fuel pressure regulators? Larger Injectors?

on the sc applications its all software, on the big turbo cars we've employed both, our software is properly live mapped on a steady state dyno, we scale the injector constants and don't just max out the base maps like the others.

Injectors are larger, 550s are just ok for upto around 270, but beyond that the 630/650s are recommended.

hope that helps some.

[Bleu Omdurman]

TVS
VF
BWR
S111
FF

in order. But I won't be buying any of them. I opted for the Skip barber 3-day and 2-day advanced courses at Sebring instead.

The speed gained there will transfer from the Lotus to the Porsche, to the Ford, to the Fcar, to the Lambo...

Not that I have any of the others........yet.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by charliex

kits been running now for over two years now, lots of track cars, maybe 200+ installs...on the sc applications its all software, on the big turbo cars we've employed both, our software is properly live mapped on a steady state dyno, we scale the injector constants and don't just max out the base maps like the others.

Charliex, I'm not throwing stones -- or picking a fight -- but having gone through this once before with a turbo-kit that was supposedly "built for the track" -- and then spending three years systematically redoing every last part, fussing endlessly with fuel mapping, spending a fortune on parts, and then giving up once I realized that I needed custom cams if I was going to overcome EGT issues and burnt-out turbo center cartridges -- I'm skeptical about the longevity of any turbo kit on the track.

Lots of cars are "track cars" if you ask the owners, but a couple of days per year isn't a longevity test. Show me a company that's willing to warranty the kit for three years, regardless of whether a car's been tracked, and then I might start believing the claims. Until then, it's caveat emptor for the buyers of these kits, and most guys will simply slink away and hide when they blow a motor, rather than admit that they made a mistake.

If your kit's sorted out, great. I applaud you. But I do believe it's a lot harder to build a turbo kit to last under hard track use then it is to bolt on a supercharger. Again, my two cents and I'm sure others feel differrently.

Twin

[Interceptor]

I think I'm leaning more towards the supercharger.

Evil Twin, when can I talk you into being my instructor this up-coming spring?

[charliex]

hey et,

I hear ya, we've all been through the same crap before, i'm primarily just a lotus owner wanting people to have cool stuff, this isn't my day job so i get to be a lot fussier over which kits i work on and which i don't.

as for the picking fights/stone throw, i don't see it like that, its a valid concern, so i'll do what i can to address it.

first the 200 kits is actually in reference to the SC kits, not the turbo car isn't actually a kit thats sold, you can recreate it as we post all the details on how to do it.

some of the cars are tracked pretty heavily, i have at least 4 cars in rally and endurance racing by professional race car drivers on professional circuits, the cars do nothing but go on track day in day out. rally is pretty tough on the cars.

the rest are basically anywhere from heavy competitive use in events like the lotus challenge, there are quite a lot of my tunes running in that series, AJ's car is probably the heaviest modified and he's very quick certainly uses the car as its supposed to be, down to the guy just tootling around going to the shops and back.

in some ways the turbo's a little easier, in others harder, the hard parts are usually the machining and such but thats not the bit i get involved in, the tuning really isn't that complicated, yes its more work than the SC kits because of the varying boost, but its all known stuff and i do work with some excellent tuners with decades of professional experience.

franks car is extremely well sorted, and he is one of the pickiest guys you'll ever meet when it comes to getting the car sorted, stuff i don't even notice he has me sort out, i spent an entire day getting the idle perfected on his car one time, we dyno tune, street tune, rinse and repeat, the engineering on the kit is really well done too, lots of attention to detail, again he's much more picky than anyone else i've ever worked with and he does have the experience to be able to spot and sort problems out, i've been around a lot when he's working with the fabricators watching all the, redo this, that and this that goes on, which results in it just being excellent quality.

he's relentless in his quest for the pefect setup, i thought the old SC car was fanatastic, and now its gone and been replaced by the turbo which anyone who's been out in it is awed by how good it is, and the good thing about him is, if anything gets broken he posts about it, theres no secretive emailing back and forth or obscurity on data, its all posted out in the open, so you know exactly what its going through in order to get it built..

if you ever hang out with us during a tuning session, you'll see its fairly intense stuff, we dont' get to leave til its perfected or the dyno throws us out, which has happened often

unfortunately the reality is people just don't want to spend the kind of money you need to develop a bespoke setup like his, it costs a lot in time and parts, paying for the wrong ones, and the replacements and the dyno time etc, him and john have split costs on a lot of it, but to my knowledge john is the only one to really do it with him, he's shouldering the rest.

so it ends up being a balancing act, the market is very price sensitive so if you want to build a kit thats OEM quality or better, it costs too much to sell, it requires a ton of RnD and most people just want to wait until someone else does all the work and go off of that, but thats whats so great about what franks done on the turbo car, he's given out all of the information you need to recreate that kit, who does it, where to get it, how much it costs, whats needed, what can be cut back on etc.

I'm not really aware of kits that'll warranty a motor, the superchargers/turbo is usually warrantied by the OEM, like magnusson for instance, but they clause out all the parts they know break, the SC carries a reasonably good warranty since it just doesn't really break.

Simplest reasons being that

(a) you'd need to know the quality of the motor it was being installed into, or have a lot of motors available to you cheaply and a network of mechanics to do the work, ie the oem.
(b) know that the installer was doing it properly.
(c) know that the setup was being properly maintained.

i've hit all three of these at one point or another.

unfortunately very few aftermarkets have that sort of setup, the kits would be just too expensive because there just isn't the volume of sales available, the only reason i've invested so much time into the ecu is because i'm practically OCD about reverse engineering it, and i have one of the cars.

but if you're serious about a turbo kit i'd certainly recommend you talk to frank about his, he'll be happy to help you out, and it is a well done kit.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Evil Twin, when can I talk you into being my instructor this up-coming spring?

Touch base with me a month or so before an event at PR or PIR, and we'll see if the schedules work out. My Lotus of Portland events will be posted in early January on the Motocorsa/LOP websites. I teach for virtually all the clubs, but I won't run with Alfa or Audi (nothing personal, Alfa or Audi owners).

Also, if you're interested, a bunch of us are planning to do both the TrackMasters event at Infineon in Sonoma (on Thursday and Friday, 3/19 and 3/20) and the Northern California Racing Club event at Thunderhill in Willows (on Saturday and Sunday, 3/21 and 3/22). Getting four days of track-time on two different NoCal tracks really makes the trek worthwhile. I would encourage you to consider coming along. See:

TrackMasters Racing
Northern California Racing Club

I have instructed for TrackMasters and NCRC before, and I am impressed with both sponsors. They run a great show.

Twin

Originally Posted by charliex

...the market is very price sensitive so if you want to build a kit thats OEM quality or better, it costs too much to sell, it requires a ton of RnD...unfortunately very few aftermarkets have that sort of setup, the kits would be just too expensive because there just isn't the volume of sales available, the only reason i've invested so much time into the ecu is because i'm practically OCD about reverse engineering it, and i have one of the cars...

Hi Charliex,

Nice write-up, and I couldn't agree more with your characterization that OEM quality implies that "aftermarket kits become just too expensive to sell." Really, truly, my earlier posts were intended to primarily make the point that getting more power out of a reasonably well designed motor without sacrificing realiability is easy. Getting the power without breaking all sorts of parts and tinkering endlessly is a bit harder. Thanks for the candid assessment.

Me, personally, I'm not in the market for either a turbo or supercharger. I'm still leaving time on the table with the stock motor -- not much, but enough to work for -- and, besides, having been down this road before, I'm not inclined to go down it again. I'll drive my current motor until it dies and will then see what the options are. I prefer the power-delivery of a supercharger, but I'd much rather find an NA built motor solution. But given how bullet-proof the 2ZZ is proving to be, I don't expect to face this particular problem for another three or four track seasons. My car sees 15-20 days per year.

Best,
Twin

[Interceptor]

Sure, I know Trevor will keep me informed of upcoming events since he's a track nut. As for Alfa or Audi, I don't know any owners of ether nor am I part of any clubs.

Originally Posted by Evil Twin

Touch base with me a month or so before an event at PR or PIR, and we'll see if the schedules work out. My Lotus of Portland events will be posted in early January on the Motocorsa/LOP websites. I teach for virtually all the clubs, but I won't run with Alfa or Audi (nothing personal, Alfa or Audi owners).

Also, if you're interested, a bunch of us are planning to do both the TrackMasters event at Infineon in Sonoma (on Thursday and Friday, 3/19 and 3/20) and the Northern California Racing Club event at Thunderhill in Willows (on Saturday and Sunday, 3/21 and 3/22). Getting four days of track-time on two different NoCal tracks really makes the trek worthwhile. I would encourage you to consider coming along. See:

TrackMasters Racing
Northern California Racing Club

I have instructed for TrackMasters and NCRC before, and I am impressed with both sponsors. They run a great show.

Twin





Hi Charliex,

Nice write-up, and I couldn't agree more with your characterization that OEM quality implies that "aftermarket kits become just too expensive to sell." Really, truly, my earlier posts were intended to primarily make the point that getting more power out of a reasonably well designed motor without sacrificing realiability is easy. Getting the power without breaking all sorts of parts and tinkering endlessly is a bit harder. Thanks for the candid assessment.

Me, personally, I'm not in the market for either a turbo or supercharger. I'm still leaving time on the table with the stock motor -- not much, but enough to work for -- and, besides, having been down this road before, I'm not inclined to go down it again. I'll drive my current motor until it dies and will then see what the options are. I prefer the power-delivery of a supercharger, but I'd much rather find an NA built motor solution. But given how bullet-proof the 2ZZ is proving to be, I don't expect to face this particular problem for another three or four track seasons. My car sees 15-20 days per year.

Best,
Twin

[33truballa33]

Disregard the pm I sent you I guess you got the lotus congrats.

As far as turbo vs sc. I'd say go with a sc. I love the hell out of my turbo but if it weren't for the previous owner spending hours of his time to perfect the fuel tuning I'd be out a lot of money. I think most dyno tuning starts at 90 an hour and there aren't any shops in WA I trust. I'd trust john reed in portland but no one else. People up here will say they know how to do tuning on the 2zz just to see the lotus. Also the sc just seems to have way more support readily available to you if things were to go wrong or if you wanted to upgrade. Just my 4 cents

[Bleu Omdurman]

See comments in blue below...

Originally Posted by PECivil

More questions for the experts....

Does anybody have any longevity with these systems? You'd have to define longevity. Of course the cars have only been around for a few years so any "longevity" would be short in my opinion. So, in a word, no.
How much boost do they run? Depends on the kit and what stage. Most are about 7 psi.
Are internals being rebuilt? Not on the stage 1 kits

compression ratios getting dropped? Same as above, not being dropped on the stage 1 stuff.

Is the systems management written in software or do they resort to tricks such as rising rate fuel pressure regulators? Larger Injectors? Depends on the kit. most are done in the software code by CharlieX.

I know, do a search. I will in the FI section

didnt mean to hyjack

[Interceptor]

I think I'm gonna get a sector111 lip and a forcefed wing before I mess with a supercharger, I kinda miss the "pssh" and the extra boost in the straits but I'll wait for now since it looks like I'm going to be stuck in my current job.

[33truballa33]

FF Stage 3 turbo kit ( low low miles )

MMMMM delicious

[mjf]

So where in the NW can we actually get an SC/Turbo kit installed? I know Park Place offers a Katana install for about $8k. Are there other options in the area or is it all diy work? For now I'd probably be satisfied with just a new tune so that I can get variable cam timing (like the elise sc has). =/

[charliex]

The variable cam on an NA probably isn't worth it, i can add it but you're not losing much just switching it to a lower point if thats where you want it.

The variable part just allows you to keep the original 6000/6200 switch for fuel economy, which on a FI car is a big difference , NA not as much.

[Interceptor]

MJF
Well I've done street tuning and bolt on kits before, but I know horsepower freaks will do it for you at a professional level and tune it on the spot with their dyno. They deal in all range of cars from vipers to evos. I'm sure working on a toyota engine in a Lotus wouldn't be that difficult and probably cheaper then going to Park Place LTD.
Edit: I just checked Horsepower Freaks website and they offer aftermarket Lotus products.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

Well I've done street tuning and bolt on kits before, but I know horsepower freaks will do it for you at a professional level and tune it on the spot with their dyno. They deal in all range of cars from vipers to evos. I'm sure working on a toyota engine in a Lotus wouldn't be that difficult and probably cheaper then going to Park Place LTD. Edit: I just checked Horsepower Freaks website and they offer aftermarket Lotus products.

Just bear in mind that tuning a supercharger kit is an order of magnitude easier than tuning a turbo because, with a supercharger, boost is a linear function of boost, irrespective of throttle position -- both absolute throttle position and second-order changes in throttle position, which are more important for longevity. Thus, if you think you can just drive over to Horsepower Freaks, shove your car on the dyno, and have your turbo "dialed in" for hard driving, you're mistaken. Tuning a turbo is time-consuming and requires a LOT of real-world driving with a laptop. It's easy to dial in great HP for showing off to your friends, but it's a lot harder to set up the tune to avoid running lean when you suddenly lift at 8,000 rpm and drop your foot again. Remember that manufacturers (Toyota included) spend millions of dollars on fuel tuning. You can't even come close to replicating the engineering sophistication of their work by spending $750 at Horsepower Freaks for two hours of dyno time.

[Interceptor]

Originally Posted by Evil Twin

Just bear in mind that tuning a supercharger kit is an order of magnitude easier than tuning a turbo because, with a supercharger, boost is a linear function of boost, irrespective of throttle position -- both absolute throttle position and second-order changes in throttle position, which are more important for longevity. Thus, if you think you can just drive over to Horsepower Freaks, shove your car on the dyno, and have your turbo "dialed in" for hard driving, you're mistaken. Tuning a turbo is time-consuming and requires a LOT of real-world driving with a laptop. It's easy to dial in great HP for showing off to your friends, but it's a lot harder to set up the tune to avoid running lean when you suddenly lift at 8,000 rpm and drop your foot again. Remember that manufacturers (Toyota included) spend millions of dollars on fuel tuning. You can't even come close to replicating the engineering sophistication of their work by spending $750 at Horsepower Freaks for two hours of dyno time.

I took my Evo 8 down there after getting new cam gears & shafts installed and they dyno tuned it for around $400. They did spend a good amount of time working to make sure the tune was streetable and worked perfectly, they even offered me different setups. They could have tuned it for track which would of upped the HP but would cause all sorts of problems for DD. I went for the safer street setup. Never had a problem and they fixed a few things. They also set it up so if I launched the car from a stop, it would peek out at 6.5k rpms. All I'm stating that you can have them install a kit for you if you do not wish to do it yourself and they can tune your car after install because I would imagine the added supercharger or turbo would mess with the ECU and they would probably street test it after wards like they did with mine. I had a great experience with them, but I never bothered to just drive there just to dial in HP for bragging rights, that's just not my style.

Don't worry bro, I'm taking your advice though, once I'm ready I'll go Super Charger. Going to take steps to get there though, first learn how to handle its current power and handling during track time with instructors then start moving up.

[mjf]

Originally Posted by Evil Twin

Just bear in mind that tuning a supercharger kit is an order of magnitude easier than tuning a turbo because, with a supercharger, boost is a linear function of boost, irrespective of throttle position -- both absolute throttle position and second-order changes in throttle position, which are more important for longevity. Thus, if you think you can just drive over to Horsepower Freaks, shove your car on the dyno, and have your turbo "dialed in" for hard driving, you're mistaken. Tuning a turbo is time-consuming and requires a LOT of real-world driving with a laptop. It's easy to dial in great HP for showing off to your friends, but it's a lot harder to set up the tune to avoid running lean when you suddenly lift at 8,000 rpm and drop your foot again. Remember that manufacturers (Toyota included) spend millions of dollars on fuel tuning. You can't even come close to replicating the engineering sophistication of their work by spending $750 at Horsepower Freaks for two hours of dyno time.

I'm also probably going the SC route. Which SC will likely be determined by some sort of ratio of cost, value, and my actual need. I'd like more power, but I'm certainly not looking for the "bragging rights" level numbers.

Originally Posted by charliex

The variable cam on an NA probably isn't worth it, i can add it but you're not losing much just switching it to a lower point if thats where you want it.

The variable part just allows you to keep the original 6000/6200 switch for fuel economy, which on a FI car is a big difference, NA not as much.

When you put it that way, it does make me wonder why I wanted variable timing, and I imagine it was at least somewhat based on perceived fuel economy. I was also wondering about when the car is warming up, it won't let the engine rev high enough to get into second cam. Does that point change with a lower switchover?

So back to the question at hand, for local installers we have:

Park Place (currently Katana, Lotus mfr some day)
Horsepower Freaks (who don't actually list an sc for elise, but will tune)

vf and bwr seem to be diy, and tvs is still under development.

[Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by Interceptor

I took my Evo 8 down there after getting new cam gears & shafts installed and they dyno tuned it for around $400...they can tune your car after install because I would imagine the added supercharger or turbo would mess with the ECU and they would probably street test it after wards like they did with mine...Don't worry bro, I'm taking your advice though, once I'm ready I'll go Super Charger. Going to take steps to get there though, first learn how to handle its current power and handling during track time with instructors then start moving up.

Sounds like a good plan,and I commend you for first learning how to drive what you've got before changing it. Did HPF tune your Evo using an aftermarket ECU or by chipping your existing ECU or by adding some sort of rising rate fuel regulator?