340R -- Is the DMV on crack?

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by Tpup

I'm going to rant for a minute, flame suit on.

First off, it's guys like you who make it hard for the rest of us to import race cars. Those cars were allowed into this country for OFF ROAD USE ONLY. I know, I bought two of the Lotus cars (Elise Sport 190, and Exige S1). I signed all kinds of docs when I bought mine and it was made clear to me that if the Feds caught me driving or registering the car it would be impounded and exported or destroyed.

No, it's the government that makes it hard for you to import race cars. I can't speak for everyone, but I will be the first to freely admit that I do not always follow the letter of the law. I don't feel any remorse about it. I am not five years old, and this is not kindergarten. I consider the law to be one factor in a sea of them. Again, for me to respect the law, the law has to be respectable, and it is not. It is not the government's business which car I'm driving.

If the EPA wants to reduce emissions, the feds should tax fuel at a high rate. These types of things wouldn't affect me directly.

[Vampyre]

Based upon the DMV's rate of pay.. and the education required for that job.. I'd get a second opinion

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by Vampyre

Based upon the DMV's rate of pay.. and the education required for that job.. I'd get a second opinion

Registering the car is dirt easy. If Virginia won't do it, Vermont probably will. Other concerns will trump that.

[fitfan]

so there are 2 problems....

1. the 340r was not built US fed complaint, and as the rules are ow - it can not be "modified" to comply. so federally it is, andwill never be compliant. (by law, yes, they could impound and destroy the car even if you were "legally registered and driving it insured" in your state.

2. now taging it and insuring it is another issue per state - some states you could get away with it (still federally illegal no matter what) VA is not very leanient in this regard - legaly you can not register it as a kit car via the state police requirments because it was a production car. i had a helluva time registering my TVR in VA and it WAS a federalized US car... but that just goes to show that anything could happen (get it by)

however - remember this.... even if its legaly registered for the street and insured in your state is NOT federaly legal and subject to all kinds of nasty things to the car and you. AND if you are ever are in any kind of settlement accident with the car... you can write off your life assets, odds are - you will be having a very bad life once the lawyers figure it out.

i, Tim, and hundereds of other have looked into this, trying to bring in car before lotus federlized - 'could' it be done... maybe. legally? no! - 'off road us yes, same liabilites apply if you put it on the street though...

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

As far as I know, and this may depend on the state, your insurer has to pay out if you tell them the truth, i.e. the correct VIN number, storage location, etc.; it doesn't matter if the car is federally legal. Again this would be my first concern. Further, I believe in NY State, they have to pay out liability claims whether you lied to them or not, the worst they can do is drop your coverage afterward.

It would be nice to have an insurance expert on the forum to confirm/deny this.

[MikeinAlexandria]

Sadly, the US government has antiquated ideas when it comes to importing cars. They say it is a safety and emissions issue, but if that were really true, why are so many people driving thirty year old, oil-dripping, grey smoke blowing junkers? These are not restored classic mind you, but $300 pieces of junk that should have been taken off the road years ago.

Let's face it, the government will stop a person who can afford to import a nice car, that is unique, but they do nothing about the person who can't afford a new car (and should really be walking and taking the bus) so drives a complete junker. Most of the '70s and '80s cars built in the US were crap, and look absolutely awful. But, they are old enough that the emissions and safety rules are reduced for them. The whole system is bs, and should be abolished. We don't need federal requirements for vehicles, let the states decide what works. Afterall, most cars one would want to import are safe and reasonably clean burning. It's not like everyone is trying to import Trabants.

I have heard about Feds impounding and crushing illegally imported cars though. It would be a shame for any Lotus to meet that fate.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by fitfan

so there are 2 problems....

1. the 340r was not built US fed complaint, and as the rules are ow - it can not be "modified" to comply. so federally it is, andwill never be compliant. (by law, yes, they could impound and destroy the car even if you were "legally registered and driving it insured" in your state.

2. now taging it and insuring it is another issue per state - some states you could get away with it (still federally illegal no matter what) VA is not very leanient in this regard - legaly you can not register it as a kit car via the state police requirments because it was a production car. i had a helluva time registering my TVR in VA and it WAS a federalized US car... but that just goes to show that anything could happen (get it by)

however - remember this.... even if its legaly registered for the street and insured in your state is NOT federaly legal and subject to all kinds of nasty things to the car and you. AND if you are ever are in any kind of settlement accident with the car... you can write off your life assets, odds are - you will be having a very bad life once the lawyers figure it out.

i, Tim, and hundereds of other have looked into this, trying to bring in car before lotus federlized - 'could' it be done... maybe. legally? no! - 'off road us yes, same liabilites apply if you put it on the street though...

Thanks. That's what I thought.

[RoadDad]

Originally Posted by MikeinAlexandria

Sadly, the US government has antiquated ideas when it comes to importing cars. They say it is a safety and emissions issue, but if that were really true, why are so many people driving thirty year old, oil-dripping, grey smoke blowing junkers? These are not restored classic mind you, but $300 pieces of junk that should have been taken off the road years ago.

And here in VA most of those cars have antique plates on them which require no safety inspections, one time registration fee, no property tax, etc...

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by RoadDad

And here in VA most of those cars have antique plates on them which require no safety inspections, one time registration fee, no property tax, etc...

The states are all over the map, no pun intended, in terms of strictness. California is at one extreme and some midwestern states seem to be at the other - I remember when living in Madison, Wisconsin there was no emissions or safety inspection of any sort.

I think the federal rules are beneficial insofar as they allow manufacturers to adhere to one standard, which keeps the manufacturers' cost down. However I don't think this is the federal government's business.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

As far as I know, and this may depend on the state, your insurer has to pay out if you tell them the truth, i.e. the correct VIN number, storage location, etc.; it doesn't matter if the car is federally legal. Again this would be my first concern. Further, I believe in NY State, they have to pay out liability claims whether you lied to them or not, the worst they can do is drop your coverage afterward.

It would be nice to have an insurance expert on the forum to confirm/deny this.

All the insurance companies I've dealt with would run the VIN, immediately not find the car at all as being a fed approved car, and simply refuse to insure.

And if you knowingly registered a car you knew to be illegal...whether the insurance company is complicit or not, you wouldn't just get to say..."Safe! Get it from the insurance company." You too would be liable, and would get cleaned out.

Things may be different where you are in Canada. But the issue of legally running these types of cars on the streets have been an issue for decades. There ARE anecdotes where somebody found a way to get over, but to assume that those anecdotes point to a sure fire way to do it simply isn't the case.

I know reputable importers and sellers of off-road only cars. Believe me, as much as their customers are looking for a way around the regs, IF there were a sure fire way to do it without consequence, they would know it. And they don't.

There are 8 340R's in the US. Legend has it one guy I think in the Chicago area, or perhaps Washington State, purportedly is driving one on the road, tagged and legal. But that is legend, as far as I can tell. If registering the other 7 were simply a matter of finding a friendly state to do the paperwork and a sympathetic insurance company, those cars would've been on the road a long, long time ago. They're not. Same with the Sport 190's, and now the 211's.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

All the insurance companies I've dealt with would run the VIN, immediately not find the car at all as being a fed approved car, and simply refuse to insure.

And if you knowingly registered a car you knew to be illegal...whether the insurance company is complicit or not, you wouldn't just get to say..."Safe! Get it from the insurance company." You too would be liable, and would get cleaned out.

I'm sure most insurance companies would run the VIN, find the car as not approved, and refuse to insure. However, I believe he *can* find an insurance company that will insure with the original VIN. If he does, he will have a contract with that insurance company stating that that particular vehicle bearing that VIN is covered. I could be wrong, but I don't believe there is an exemption in any state for the insurance company if the vehicle isn't federally approved, but I am certain that this would have to be spelled out explicitly in either the contract or state law, or else he's covered.

The reason it's a legend and not a fact is that the person doing it doesn't advertise.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

The reason it's a legend and not a fact is that the person doing it doesn't advertise.

And this is based on.....

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

And this is based on.....

It's based on common sense. You think people aren't doing this?

[lotus69f2]

All of the 340R's currently in the US can not legally be driven on the roads, no matter what an individual state DMV or insurance company is willing to do. THese cars were imported as track only cars, and unless exported to another country they will always and forever be track only cars in the US.

You can not import a 340R under the specialty vehicle regulations as it (and every other pre-federal Elise and variations) have already been denied by NHTSA.

This is the only way (that I am aware of) that a 340 can be legally driven on the road in this country:

Wait until the 340R is 25 years old (from date of manufacture). Buy one that has not already been imported to the US. Import it to the US as a road car (NHTSA doesn't care about cars 25 years or older and EPA's regulations are for a shorter period of time).

From NHTSA web site:

8. Importing a vehicle that is at least 25 years old.


A motor vehicle that is at least 25 years old can be lawfully imported into the U.S. without regard to whether it complies with all applicable FMVSS. Such a vehicle would be entered under Box 1 on the HS-7 Declaration form to be given to Customs at the time of importation. If you wish to see that form, you may download a copy from our website at Vehicle Importation Regulations. You should note that the 25 year period runs from the date of the vehicle's manufacture. If the date of manufacture is not identified on a label permanently affixed to the vehicle by its original manufacturer, to establish the age of the vehicle, you should have documentation available such as an invoice showing the date the vehicle was first sold or a registration document showing that the vehicle was registered at least 25 years ago. Absent such information, a statement from a recognized vehicle historical society identifying the age of the vehicle could be used.


Importation and Certification FAQ's Directory--All Vehicles



Theoretically, one of the current US cars could be exported, then re-imported when 25 years old and be legal.

[kestrel74]

Register it in Michigan. If it has wheels and a motor, you can get a plate for it here !.... I'm serious. I've seen golf carts with license plates. OH.......Guess you won't be buying the Europa now ?????????????????

[tvacc]

There is one other way to get a 340r or similar car on the road leagally.

You can import a car without engine/tranny as "parts". Then find a suitable replacement US legal engine and have it registered the same way that the Caterhams, Birkins, and other "kit" cars are registered.

There is a fine line. It can no longer be a "car" when it comes into the country. There are many 190's and such in the USA that way...as well as a hell of a lot of Caterhams/Birkins.....etc...etc.

I have often thought of doing that with the 340r or the 211.

Oh...as long at the insurance company knows what you are insuring, they cannot deny a claim. A kit car is a kit car.

[lotus69f2]

Originally Posted by tvacc

There is one other way to get a 340r or similar car on the road leagally.

You can import a car without engine/tranny as "parts". Then find a suitable replacement US legal engine and have it registered the same way that the Caterhams, Birkins, and other "kit" cars are registered.

There is a fine line. It can no longer be a "car" when it comes into the country. There are many 190's and such in the USA that way...as well as a hell of a lot of Caterhams/Birkins.....etc...etc.

I have often thought of doing that with the 340r or the 211.

Oh...as long at the insurance company knows what you are insuring, they cannot deny a claim. A kit car is a kit car.

This falls into the category of "you might be able to get away with it, but it is still illegal". You can not legally disassemble a car that is not legal in the US, then import the parts and reassemble it - even if it gets a different EPA legal engine - and call it a kit car. Both the 340R and 211 are fully produced cars and will not qualify as kit cars like Caterham and Birkin do.

[tvacc]

Originally Posted by lotus69f2

This falls into the category of "you might be able to get away with it, but it is still illegal". You can not legally disassemble a car that is not legal in the US, then import the parts and reassemble it - even if it gets a different EPA legal engine - and call it a kit car. Both the 340R and 211 are fully produced cars and will not qualify as kit cars like Caterham and Birkin do.

Yes....that is what I thought to....but I have not been able to find a law written anywhere that really says that if you import parts...that you cannot assemble those parts with a US legal engine and tranny and get it licensed
.
Now....there is the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck" way to look at it. In that sense it can be looked at as being illegal.

Caterhams and Birkins are sold in other countries as completed cars. so that fact that the car is being sold in other countries has no merit. I honestly dont see the difference between a Caterham and what we all (well at least me) want to do.

The question is if you "dissemble" a car. And then use those parts to build a new "kit" car. No where have I been able to find that exactly stated in a law. If it was illegal then you would not be able to put parts from any "assembled" car into a kit car and license it. But obviously you can and done every day.

But I may be wrong. I have been before.

But the real is issue is liability. You have to make sure that it is all done with a legal leg to stand on and make sure it is defendable and that you can afford to defend that position when you kill someone with the car and the insurance company refuses to pay.

[andykeck]

Originally Posted by tvacc

...but I have not been able to find a law written anywhere that really says that if you import parts...that you cannot assemble those parts with a US legal engine and tranny and get it licensed

There are a lot of relevant regulations that I've found. Most of them I've lost the links to but here are the results of a quick search. The is from the EPA, but DOT has similar language as well.

4.The production, sale and importation of vehicle parts (engines, transmissions, chassis, vehicle bodies, etc.) are not regulated by EPA because parts are not considered motor vehicles under the Clean Air Act. However if the parts constitute a disassembled vehicle or an approximate disassembled vehicle, the combination is considered a motor vehicle under the Clean Air Act. Any attempt to use this policy to circumvent the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations will be considered a violation of the Clean Air Act and will be strictly enforced. An example of such circumvention is:A kit car maker who also provides the engine and transmission before or after production/importation of the body/chassis.

5."Motor vehicles" must comply with the Clean Air Act and may not be disassembled nor purchased in a disassembled form for the purposes of evading the Clean Air Act or the Imports regulations. In these situations the kit car body/chassis combination must be certified by the manufacturer, must be in a configuration which was previously certified by EPA subject to the guidelines discussed at "2" above or, in the case of an importation, an EPA form 3520-1 must be filed at the port of entry and the vehicle imported by an eligible ICI who must ensure that the kit car body/chassis complies with all applicable emission requirements. At the present time, there are no ICIs eligible to import kit cars.

Basically, if you are claiming that a car is a kit, you better be able to prove to the Feds that you've made something substantially different than any particular car manufactured for sale. And/or the manufacturer must provide documentation that the car was meant to be sold as a kit. Caterham and others like that will provide that documentation. Lotus will not.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by apk919

I think you should change the title to "Am I on crack?"... you actually believe what someone at DMV told you over the phone?

+ eleventy billion