340R -- Is the DMV on crack?

[Lancia]

My upgraded 1968 engine (which meets emission specs) also may not be registered in california because it has been upgraded for more power and efficiency.
If it had original parts and pollution output, it would be allowed.

Nothing stupider than california auto rules.
And they have cost the entire country a fortune.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

I don't believe in California.

For that matter I believe that the federal government has (again in my opinion) forfeited its right to tell me what to do, by virtue of incompetence. So I am very selective about following the letter of the law. I will register my car in Tijuana if it will get the job done.

[mjf]

I don't get why this is a federal issue. Seems like the reasons given for it not being legal are very sketchy and don't apply to many cars that are legal anyway. Seems like this should be a state issue as to what the state is determining is legal in the state.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one of these was owned and registered in Canada/Mexico and the person visited the states, they would be allowed to drive it for their visit yes? (assuming they were legal in either Canada or Mexico).

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by mjf

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one of these was owned and registered in Canada/Mexico and the person visited the states, they would be allowed to drive it for their visit yes? (assuming they were legal in either Canada or Mexico).

Yes. If you drive your car into the US via road, you don't declare it with customs and there is no record of the car's entry into the US. I'm not sure exactly what the letter of the law is regarding this, but on a practical level you will probably get away with it unless you have an accident and insurance becomes an issue.

Of course most states want you to register within 30 days. This too won't matter unless you live in a sparsely populated area and the same cop sees you drive the same car for months.

Edit: I should point out that Canada and Mexico are also pretty restrictive, Canada having similar legal environment to the US and Mexico basically not allowing any imported car from the past 25? years to be registered. However, nothing is stopping you from shipping a car to Belize, registering it there, and driving it all the way to the US border.

[TimMullen]

[quote=ggelise;1324602]L

Originally Posted by mjf

I don't get why this is a federal issue. Seems like the reasons given for it not being legal are very sketchy and don't apply to many cars that are legal anyway. Seems like this should be a state issue as to what the state is determining is legal in the state.

It falls under Federal laws controlling imports - i.e. customs. It's not legal to import certain things into the US, and cars that don't meet the regulations are one of the things.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one of these was owned and registered in Canada/Mexico and the person visited the states, they would be allowed to drive it for their visit yes? (assuming they were legal in either Canada or Mexico).

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

Yes. If you drive your car into the US via road, you don't declare it with customs and there is no record of the car's entry into the US. I'm not sure exactly what the letter of the law is regarding this, but on a practical level you will probably get away with it unless you have an accident and insurance becomes an issue.

If you are a visitor, correct. If you are a resident, you have to register the car - which means that you had to import it, and if you just drove it across the border with the intention of keeping it here permanently, you just smuggled the car in against the law.

Ther are exemptions for race cars, show cars, and temporary foreign residents (less than 12 months then the car has to be exported), but in general the car has to be "legal" - it's been discussed many times, and believe me, before we go the Toyota engined S2 Elise, there was a LOT of people trying to figure out how to legally import an S1 - there wasn't any way (except as a race car which can never be registered for the street).

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

Of course most states want you to register within 30 days. This too won't matter unless you live in a sparsely populated area and the same cop sees you drive the same car for months.

Or someone neighbor gets ticked off and turns you in. Or you get a ticket (been there, done that *), or many other things that could get you "caught". Then remember, you are guilty of Federal crimes (smuggling, fraud, etc.) not just an illegally registered car.

* I once imported a Masseratti into the US (it was a '67 so it was legal for import). California law said that you had to register a car within 10 days, but it was 30 days for an imported car. On about the 15th day, my buddy was driving and got stopped by the CHP. The cop was about to haul my buddy off to jail and my car to the impount lot because I didn't register it within 10 days. I had to pull out my copy of the Vehicle Code (yes, I used to keep a copy in each car), to explain the law to him. He was pissed off...

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

* I once imported a Masseratti into the US (it was a '67 so it was legal for import). California law said that you had to register a car within 10 days, but it was 30 days for an imported car. On about the 15th day, my buddy was driving and got stopped by the CHP. The cop was about to haul my buddy off to jail and my car to the impount lot because I didn't register it within 10 days. I had to pull out my copy of the Vehicle Code (yes, I used to keep a copy in each car), to explain the law to him. He was pissed off...

Why did your buddy tell the officer that it was the 15th day at all? He could have told him he brought the car in yesterday.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

If you are a visitor, correct. If you are a resident, you have to register the car - which means that you had to import it, and if you just drove it across the border with the intention of keeping it here permanently, you just smuggled the car in against the law.

Of course you smuggled the car into the country.

I'm not talking about following the letter of the law.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

Why did your buddy tell the officer that it was the 15th day at all? He could have told him he brought the car in yesterday.

The car had Italian plates on it. We had to show the Italian registration book (it was about 30 pages long and had all the registration records stamped into the book - all in Italian), and of course I had to show the importation papers to the cop. The cop was looking for blood as he figure my buddy was in excess of 100 MPH at the time he passed the cop hidden parked on the on ramp (long before they had radars) - he was actually doing about 125 at the time (yes, this was in my stupid youth, so I didn't know any better). The cop didn't get a good "clock" on him so he wrote him up as estimated in excess of 80 MPH (speed limit was 55 at the time).

The rest of the funny part of the story is that the cop was about ready to arrest us for a stolen "vehicle". The Italian license matched a stolen semi-truck trailer from Louisiana. The cop was reading us our rights when I pointed out to him that he was going to have a tough time explaining to the judge that the Mistral looked like a semi-truck trailer...

[Lancia]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

The Italian license matched a stolen semi-truck trailer from Louisiana. The cop was reading us our rights when I pointed out to him that he was going to have a tough time explaining to the judge that the Mistral looked like a semi-truck trailer...

That's some serious custom work.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

You don't *have* to show importation papers to a cop just because you were pulled over with foreign plates. Maybe he could have held you up while he found out if the car is legally registered in Italy, I'm not sure. But Italian plates are valid in the US, as are plates from any country. In fact it's entirely possible to end up with an Italian car in the US without importing it at all, although that would be damn suspicious it's not categorically illegal. You could be a temporary resident in Italy who had the car in Mexico and drove up for a day. I've seen people with German plates do precisely that. They can't register their car in Mexico because it's too young, and it's not the place of the CHP to enforce Mexico's registration laws.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

The rest of the funny part of the story is that the cop was about ready to arrest us for a stolen "vehicle". The Italian license matched a stolen semi-truck trailer from Louisiana. The cop was reading us our rights when I pointed out to him that he was going to have a tough time explaining to the judge that the Mistral looked like a semi-truck trailer...

That's not all he would have to explain, he would also have to explain the similarity between Louisiana and Italian license plates, of which there is remarkably little.

It sounds like you just got a pissed off cop on your hands, and he could have ruined your day but not your week, month or year.

[Trevor Ely]

So, I'm not entirely sure if this has been covered or not, but have you guys considered the "Show and Display" rule?

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/...osd072003.html

I think a S1 Elise would be car that you could realistically describe as significant enough to be 'fitting' for Show and Display.

Thoughts?

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

You're absolutely right, in fact I believe there are a lot of cars in the US under 'show and display'. You only get 2500 miles per year, but if you're willing to let the letter of the law fall by the wayside, do the practical thing and roll it back every year you will probably be clear and free.

You still need an ICI to bring the car into conformance though if you'll be driving it. $$$ but possible.

[lotus69f2]

Originally Posted by Trevor Ely

So, I'm not entirely sure if this has been covered or not, but have you guys considered the "Show and Display" rule?

How To Import A Motor Vehicle For Show Or Display

I think a S1 Elise would be car that you could realistically describe as significant enough to be 'fitting' for Show and Display.

Thoughts?

THe Elise has already been denied for show and DIsplay. THe only Lotus approved is the Lotus Omega. THe list of cars approved is awfully small.http://204.68.195.250/cars/rules/imp...list040109.pdf And the Rover engine would still have to be federalized.

[Trevor Ely]

So, you can get a GT1 over here, but you want to bring your Rover powered Elise...No can do!

Amazing.

I'm noticing that it seems the high performance versions, or versions that are nearly racers are the ones that are being turned down (959 Sport, XJ220 S, 964 C4 RS) ...Which doesn't look very good for an S1 Sport 190, especially since the 340R has already been turned down.

BTW, I noticed how Seinfeld's 993 (C4S) managed to slip by. (Last aircooled 911)

[Trevor Ely]

Originally Posted by MyFutureSelfnMe

You're absolutely right, in fact I believe there are a lot of cars in the US under 'show and display'. You only get 2500 miles per year, but if you're willing to let the letter of the law fall by the wayside, do the practical thing and roll it back every year you will probably be clear and free.

I had met some folks at a local event that had brought over a Alfa 156 over here on the same same "Show and Display"...and how is that more historically significant than an Elise?!

[ggelise]

It may be legally registered in what ever state you are in, but it was still illegally imported into the US. The S1 Exige was a production car, so therefore under Federal regulations, it can not be turned into a "kit car" (noo matter how many changes you make to it). I sincerly hope that you don't get caught (and you might never get caught), but at any time if some Fed checks up on it, the can can be confiscated and destroyed - it has happened...

My car parts were not illegally imported. Again, this is an easy thing to do. It is like taxes, you can overpay all you want or find legal ways to shelter as much as possible.

Import car parts, document everything and construct a specialty vehicle. This is 100% legal. Laws vary state to state but virtually all states have a similar provisions.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

ggelise, I believe people have managed to import cars as parts simply by pulling the engine. However I seem to recall something about it technically being illegal to just throw another engine in and register that chassis as a specialty vehicle but my memory is a little foggy and my motivation isn't there.

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Originally Posted by Trevor Ely

I had met some folks at a local event that had brought over a Alfa 156 over here on the same same "Show and Display"...and how is that more historically significant than an Elise?!

This is why some guy from Chicago was driving around in an S1 Exige registered as a 1988 Toyota Corolla, circa around 2002. There comes a point where it's all completely abusive and ridiculous and you just say **** it.

[lotus69f2]

Anecdotal stories of this guy or that guy showing uo at a show with a car that is illegal to import doesn't mean that the car is legally in the US. This thread is quite long and that makes it a bit hard to get through and sort out all of the reality from opinion. I'll try to sort out some salient points.


Registering a car in a state does not equal the car is legal to have in the US

No Elise - other than Federal cars - can be legally imported by an idividual and driven on the road.

Non Federal Elises imported by LCU and sold as track only cars can not be converted to cars legal to drive in the US except possibly for the process I delineated in Reply #35

The list of cars approved for SHow and Display is here - http://204.68.195.250/cars/rules/imp...list040109.pdf - If it isn't on the list it wasn't legally imported through the Show and Display process.

FAQ from DOT on ways to import cars - Importation and Certification FAQ's Directory--All Vehicles - pay special attention to the parts that discuss kit and disassembled cars. It is clear that you can not disassemble a non federal car then import it and reassemble it and be legal.

You can not simply do a swap for a federal engine on a non federal car and make it legal. There is a process for that, but it requires a certification which is long and arduous - just like getting EPA certification on a Show and Diplay car.