340R -- Is the DMV on crack?

[Tpup]

Originally Posted by lotus69f2

Anecdotal stories of this guy or that guy showing uo at a show with a car that is illegal to import doesn't mean that the car is legally in the US. This thread is quite long and that makes it a bit hard to get through and sort out all of the reality from opinion. I'll try to sort out some salient points.


Registering a car in a state does not equal the car is legal to have in the US

No Elise - other than Federal cars - can be legally imported by an idividual and driven on the road.

Non Federal Elises imported by LCU and sold as track only cars can not be converted to cars legal to drive in the US except possibly for the process I delineated in Reply #35

The list of cars approved for SHow and Display is here - http://204.68.195.250/cars/rules/imp...list040109.pdf - If it isn't on the list it wasn't legally imported through the Show and Display process.

FAQ from DOT on ways to import cars - Importation and Certification FAQ's Directory--All Vehicles - pay special attention to the parts that discuss kit and disassembled cars. It is clear that you can not disassemble a non federal car then import it and reassemble it and be legal.

You can not simply do a swap for a federal engine on a non federal car and make it legal. There is a process for that, but it requires a certification which is long and arduous - just like getting EPA certification on a Show and Diplay car.

+1 - Kyle is spot on.

[Jet-X]

Funny to find this thread - I had once again started my quest to get a 340R and drive the damn thing on the streets, in California no less.

Anyway, my little bit of stories to add since I've been trying for 5 years now, including the engine swap. It's a bitch, it's near impossible to do.

I did run across what I believe to be the 'alleged' car in Washington, it was on Ebay years ago with full plates/titles. It was a right hand drive car (I wanted left) that was NOT part of the initial 8 that LCU brought into the states. I don't have disposable income so didn't risk buying a car I might not be able to drive. I wasn't married at the time (am now), but my girlfriends parents lived in Washington, I could have kept the car registered there and drove it in LA. Alas, that time has passed...

I also considered (flame suit on - sue me) buying a junked Elise and salvaging the VIN and reapplying it. It's illegal to a T, but it's one Elise VIN going to another Elise. Wow, I feel like Charlie Sheen in No Mans Land. But I wasn't sure of how the 340Rs had their VINs applied (like Elise? Sticker on windshield/door jamb?). Anyway, getting a salvage Elise just adds to the cost.

In the end, as desperate as I am to get one, it's a lot of work and no guarantee I'll be able to drive it legally. Oh, I would've swapped the Rover motor for a Honda motor.

Lastly, I can't remember the gents name from Lotus/Hethel, but before the Elise went on sale officially in the United States, he had one of the test cars at our local car gathering (Crystal Cove - now gone). I was parked next to him in my Ferrari and we struck up a nice conversation, exchanged numbers yada yada yada. Anyway, I brought up the 340R and he rolled his eyes and grimaced - said the Elise S2 was a better car. But I *did* ask him "Can the 340R panels be attached to the Elise S2" and his immediate response was "No. Too many differences under the panels, they'd never fit."

Take it as gospel or a grain of salt, but if it isn't apparent, I was pretty desparate for an 340R.

There is a car in Portland for sale, one of the 8 cars LCU brought in, and it does have Portland Oregon plates that allow it to be driven on the road much in the way Show-and-Display works. But I don't know anyone in Oregon...oh wait, I do. Time to drop that person a note...

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Jet-X, why don't you build a set of body panels to make a 340R lookalike out of an S2 Elise? I've always suspected it wouldn't be terribly difficult and as the gentleman said, you'd have a better car.

Failing that, get a vacation house in Belize and register it there

[ggelise]

Not germane to this specific situation but if there is anyone looking to drive a legal s1 there is a way.

Again buy/import car parts and build a specialty vehicle. Hot rods, replica vehicles the thousands of vehicles of all description get legally registered via this method. True you can not import a complete vehicle or convert a car that is already here and swap the motor etc this is a fact.

If you want a legal s1 buy a car sans motor have the mostly disassembled car put in a 20 foot container (if buying from the UK where they are tons very cheap early model s1's for example) and import car parts. Buy a RHD to LHD conversion kit. Buy the Stark DIY honda conversion kit for the engine. Document everything! Fill out the DMV paperwork get the car inspected and you have a legal kit car or specialty vehicle. This is 100% legal. I would recommend an s1 exige as they are going up in value and disappearing fast from the UK. Also the money you invest will be better spent as there were only 600 made and probably only 500 remain. 340r would be even better. Notice how the Honda powered s1's fly by the s2's on the track-it literally feels like the car has no mass! The effort is worth every penny. Also it is very easy to get huge hp from the Honda and the box can take a licking.

[Jet-X]

I sent the NHTSA board a letter a year and a half ago asking what factors contributed to their decision to not allow the 340R under the show and display rules. I've never heard back.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by ggelise

If you want a legal s1 buy a car sans motor have the mostly disassembled car put in a 20 foot container (if buying from the UK where they are tons very cheap early model s1's for example) and import car parts. Buy a RHD to LHD conversion kit. Buy the Stark DIY Honda conversion kit for the engine. Document everything! Fill out the DMV paperwork get the car inspected and you have a legal kit car or specialty vehicle. This is 100% legal.

No, it is not legal. You may get it by the local DMV, but the car was still illegally imported. The fact that you bought "parts" and assembled the car doesn't matter. The chassis has a VIN, and the VIN makes it a "manufactured car", and that makes it illegal.

Unless of course, you build your own custom chassis and attach the parts to it - like a kit car - is not going to be legal for IMPORTATION for street use.

That's the bottom line - if it is not legal for importation as a complete car, you can not disassemble / rebuild / modify / convert / etc. it to get around the importation laws.

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by ggelise

Again buy/import car parts and build a specialty vehicle. Hot rods, replica vehicles the thousands of vehicles of all description get legally registered via this method. True you can not import a complete vehicle or convert a car that is already here and swap the motor etc this is a fact..

not a fact - in fact illegal.

vintage cars, kit cars, etc.. are not the same as importing a s1 elise for road use in the us.

you are mixing up various legalities.

[ggelise]

To answer your specific issue regarding the VIN. Sun International took s1's "that had a vin" replaced the engine and legally gave them a new vin in California of all places. The legality was exhaustively researched by the owner to the extent that it was cleared with EPA and all other sate and Federal agencies. They legally sold these cars, articles appeared in Road and Track etc. The state and federal government knew every detail.


Again, working with car parts not a complete car being reconstructed, you can use any parts you want as long as the list of state specific requirements are met. There are requirements regarding safety and ratios of new parts to qualify as a specialty vehicle such as engine transmission replacement etc. and each states has a unique set of requirements.

Not importing an s1 for road use. You are using a chassis and various parts and building a different car with a different engine gearbox ecu etc. Read the actual laws and talk to the people who make a living selling specialty vehicles and you will learn what it takes to do it legally.

Not an s1 a kit car with honda engine etc with an s1 chassis it is legal and has been proven to be such.

[lotusforsale]

Originally Posted by ggelise

To answer your specific issue regarding the VIN. Sun International took s1's "that had a vin" replaced the engine and legally gave them a new vin in California of all places. The legality was exhaustively researched by the owner to the extent that it was cleared with EPA and all other sate and Federal agencies. They legally sold these cars, articles appeared in Road and Track etc. The state and federal government knew every detail.


Again, working with car parts not a complete car being reconstructed, you can use any parts you want as long as the list of state specific requirements are met. There are requirements regarding safety and ratios of new parts to qualify as a specialty vehicle such as engine transmission replacement etc. and each states has a unique set of requirements.

Not importing an s1 for road use. You are using a chassis and various parts and building a different car with a different engine gearbox ecu etc. Read the actual laws and talk to the people who make a living selling specialty vehicles and you will learn what it takes to do it legally.

Not an s1 a kit car with honda engine etc with an s1 chassis it is legal and has been proven to be such.

Well, that's one side of the Sun story. The story I heard is that Sun got away with producing the cars for awhile, but in the end had to stop because indeed they were being investigated by customs.

See this thread here from 5 years ago. See post by one Mr. Infamous Joe McCarthy, who claims to have been involved with Sun and the Elise. Now, he's renowned in his own right, so take it with a grain of salt.

But if he is to be believed, the Sun experience with the Elise isn't quite as clear cut as your post would indicate.

Another Honda Engine Conversion

[MyFutureSelfnMe]

Forget what I said about importing a vehicle to Belize too. You can import anything you want, but the duty is 57-65%

[lotus69f2]

Originally Posted by ggelise

To answer your specific issue regarding the VIN. Sun International took s1's "that had a vin" replaced the engine and legally gave them a new vin in California of all places. The legality was exhaustively researched by the owner to the extent that it was cleared with EPA and all other sate and Federal agencies. They legally sold these cars, articles appeared in Road and Track etc. The state and federal government knew every detail.


Again, working with car parts not a complete car being reconstructed, you can use any parts you want as long as the list of state specific requirements are met. There are requirements regarding safety and ratios of new parts to qualify as a specialty vehicle such as engine transmission replacement etc. and each states has a unique set of requirements.

Not importing an s1 for road use. You are using a chassis and various parts and building a different car with a different engine gearbox ecu etc. Read the actual laws and talk to the people who make a living selling specialty vehicles and you will learn what it takes to do it legally.

Not an s1 a kit car with honda engine etc with an s1 chassis it is legal and has been proven to be such.

That Sun International assigned a new VIN inplies that they are manufacturers. If the DOT/EPA/etc recognized them as such and the cars met all federal regulations then it is a legal importation process. Shelby in his day was a recognized manufacturer. Saleen in current day is as well - his cars are not Fords, they are Slaeens.

However, applying for and getting manufacturer status for an individual wishing to import an S1 Elsie and replace the engine will not work. ANd even if a manufaturer is doing it legally, it still wouldn't be legal for an individual to do so.

See my previous posts and read the links.

And as mentioned above. Sun are under investigation. I suspect they have run afoul of the manufacturer regulation

[ggelise]

I know Tom personally and am aware of the credentials of SUN. I have had a bad experience with them and posted about it. The point was related to the VIN. A vehicle imported wo engine and trans (these will be replaced by Honda components) is not a vehicle it is a batch of car parts.

The LAW:
A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies, glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment.

If a vehicle is shipped without its engine and drive train, it would be treated, for importation purposes, not as a motor vehicle but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. In this instance, the vehicle would be entered under Box 1 on the HS-7 Declaration form, which covers motor vehicle equipment not covered by a standard, or manufactured before the date that an applicable standard takes effect. Any items included in the assemblage that are subject to an FMVSS (brake hoses, brake fluid, glazing, lighting equipment, seat belt assemblies, tires, rims) that were not manufactured to comply with the applicable standard, and/or were not so certified by their original manufacturer, must be removed from the assemblage and exported or destroyed before entry

Again, import car parts. Buy a DIY conversion kit to fit the Honda lump and replace the parts listed above and as long as you follow the letter of the law you can legally register your Specialty Vehicle.

If anyone is interested in this talk with folks that actually have the facts, do your own research and you will see that this is a well established legal way to accomplish this goal. It is not cheap, insurance becomes an issue, some states require you to materially participate in the construction and resale can be an issue in some states.

Drive one and you will be glad you decided to build a SV with a Honda lump and s1 chassis. Good luck.

[Vulcan Grey]

There is a 340R on ebay right now...

[fitfan]

Originally Posted by ggelise

To answer your specific issue regarding the VIN. Sun International took s1's "that had a vin" replaced the engine and legally gave them a new vin in California of all places. The legality was exhaustively researched by the owner to the extent that it was cleared with EPA and all other sate and Federal agencies. They legally sold these cars, articles appeared in Road and Track etc. The state and federal government knew every detail.


Again, working with car parts not a complete car being reconstructed, you can use any parts you want as long as the list of state specific requirements are met. There are requirements regarding safety and ratios of new parts to qualify as a specialty vehicle such as engine transmission replacement etc. and each states has a unique set of requirements.

Not importing an s1 for road use. You are using a chassis and various parts and building a different car with a different engine gearbox ecu etc. Read the actual laws and talk to the people who make a living selling specialty vehicles and you will learn what it takes to do it legally.

Not an s1 a kit car with honda engine etc with an s1 chassis it is legal and has been proven to be such.

i did contact Sun back in the day - and they said they had mistakes/issues, were trying to correct them, and could not get a car in legally. i had also heard some sun cars were impounded - but i did not bother to verify if that was true.

[ggelise]

Guys look into the SV approach. It can be a pain in the ass but jump through all the hoops and you have a very cool Specialty Vehicle. What Sun Int. was doing was in no way similar to what I am talking about. I was a victim of this pathetic company as he, TOM C failed to deliver the entire kit that I purchased from SI. I don't know why I mentioned them.

Insurance co.'s in the UK will total early model s1's with only cosmetic damage as the older Rover powered cars are not worth much. Elise parts sell a complete set of s1 Exige bodywork for 6k. Keep all receipts send over the chassis sans motor, wheels, bodywork and the other specified parts listed above (the Exige had greater offset.) Then, purchase a DIY conversion kit from Stark and most all of the major parts are on their way in a 20 foot container. Get a Honda motor and you have most of what is needed to legally start building your Specialty Vehicle. It is very easy to get big HP from these motors and you can fit a 2.4 with an easy block swap! We expect 500 to the crank on our 2.4 with the final tune. 4,5,6,7 hundred hp per ton is easy with this approach it just a matter of building the motor which is is very reasonable as there are tons of parts priced for the kids that own Civics. Also the gearbox is very strong and can handle the power. Lastly, the engine is very light. Oh yea, RHD to LHD is a 20 hour job and there is a kit for this also.

The handling of a 1,500 pound Lotus with more hp per ton than a Veyron! All in you are talking about $28k if you are a good shopper.


Something to think about-

Cheers

[tvacc]

Originally Posted by TimMullen

The chassis has a VIN, and the VIN makes it a "manufactured car", and that makes it illegal.

That's the bottom line - if it is not legal for importation as a complete car, you can not disassemble / rebuild / modify / convert / etc. it to get around the importation laws.

I understand what you are saying, but all Caterham Chassis have VINs as well. And the fact is that you can import a Caterham Chassis with a VIN, and all the parts including the wrong lights...belts...etc. Purchase a motor/tranny here out of a ford focus and a sierra gearbox and legally title the car here in the USA and drive it in the USA.

I honestly dont see the difference between that and taking apart an Elise...shipping the parts here without an engine and tranny....going through the kit car process and legally registering the kit here.

The difference I see is that at one time the S1 was a car and the Caterham was not. I dont see that line defined in any law.

[TimMullen]

Originally Posted by ggelise

To answer your specific issue regarding the VIN. Sun International took s1's "that had a vin" replaced the engine and legally gave them a new vin in California of all places. The legality was exhaustively researched by the owner to the extent that it was cleared with EPA and all other sate and Federal agencies. They legally sold these cars, <...>
Not importing an s1 for road use. You are using a chassis and various parts and building a different car with a different engine gearbox ecu etc. Read the actual laws and talk to the people who make a living selling specialty vehicles and you will learn what it takes to do it legally.

Originally Posted by lotusforsale

Well, that's one side of the Sun story. The story I heard is that Sun got away with producing the cars for awhile, but in the end had to stop because indeed they were being investigated by customs.

Basically, Sun got away with it until a guy down in Florida that was illegally importing S1s got in a massive wreck. That brought it to the attention of the Feds, and they started investigating Sun - Sun immediately stopped selling their "Elises".

Originally Posted by ggelise

The LAW:
A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies, glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment.

I.e. The chassis. To paraphrase what is written above, you are free to import an S1 Elise as long as you remove things like the glass, the brake system, and the CHASSIS as they were not certified to meet US regulations.

Originally Posted by tvacc

I understand what you are saying, but all Caterham Chassis have VINs as well. And the fact is that you can import a Caterham Chassis with a VIN, and all the parts including the wrong lights...belts...etc. Purchase a motor/tranny here out of a ford focus and a sierra gearbox and legally title the car here in the USA and drive it in the USA.

The difference is that the Caterham was not sold as a street car - it was originally sold as a box of parts. A manufactured (i.e. assembled) vehicle is not legal for importation unless it meets US regs. Taking a manufactured vehicle apart and importing it as pieces doesn't change things. I wish it did...