Battery Choices & Information

[SweetDaddyD]

Originally Posted by Lancia

That's not good.
Did they warrantee it?

No. I just got the run around, dead ends, or no answers. Eventually I gave up.
Several us of got them at the same time from the same vendor and at least 2 others were dead after winter too.
YMMV.
My mileage says they are overhyped, overmarketed crap in a fancy package.

[snuggles1]

I wanted to wait a little while before posting my experiences here. I got the Braille 2015 and couldnt be more disappointed. This thing constantly needs a tender or a jump. I may get 3 - 4 days of non-use before it dies. Totally impractical for my needs. Might as well just disconnect it from November on.

[Lancia]

Originally Posted by TheViper

I beg to differ, AGM are VRLA (stands for valve-regulated lead-acid) and is the designation for low-maintenance lead-acid rechargeable batteries.
These batteries recirculate the hydrogen gas, but they always include a safety pressure relief valve. As opposed to vented (also called flooded) batteries, a VRLA cannot spill its elecrolyte if it is inverted.

Are you talking about the brand AGM, or the battery description agm?
Optima batteries do not have the type of valve you are mentioning.
It does exist, but optima doesn't have them.

Their valves should resist leaking except under pressure.

[Lancia]

Originally Posted by SweetDaddyD

No. I just got the run around, dead ends, or no answers. Eventually I gave up.
Several us of got them at the same time from the same vendor and at least 2 others were dead after winter too.
YMMV.
My mileage says they are overhyped, overmarketed crap in a fancy package.

Sounds like you got bad ones.
I'd call the factory.
Mine lasted years in hard use.
I finally drained it totally with lights running and it recharged in two hours.
A couple of years after that it began to lose charge if parked over a week.
Okay for a few days.
Then it was stolen.

[TheViper]

From Optima ;
" Overcharging can cause the safety valves to open and battery gasses to escape, resulting in premature failure".
This is the characteristics and design of the hydrogen gas recirculation feature for all AGM batteries where the valve only opens in event of extreme circumstances
Cheers,
michael

Originally Posted by Lancia

Are you talking about the brand AGM, or the battery description agm?
Optima batteries do not have the type of valve you are mentioning.
It does exist, but optima doesn't have them.

Their valves should resist leaking except under pressure.

[Lancia]

I called optima to see if they had added this type valve.
Unless the person I talked to was unaware of it, they use a simple pressure valve.
While this may result in recombination by trapping gas, this is different from the type I think you are referring to commonly used on commercial banks.
Last time I saw those, they cost $15 each and that was some time ago on a solar site.
Optima says it is too expensive a feature to add.
The type I've seen screwed onto standard cap threads.


R+ Recombination Caps | Rolls



To fully charge any storage battery a certain amount of overcharge is necessary. This equalizes the power in the cells of the battery. When a cell reaches 80% capacity, surplus energy is dissipated through heat, which results in the release of hydrogen and oxygen gasses. These gasses escape from the battery and cause a reduction in the electrolyte level. You must then counteract this process by "topping up" these cells with distilled water.

R+ Recombination Caps are able to catalytically recombine the hydrogen and oxygen gasses into pure water which is then returned to the battery cell. This process drastically reduces the amount of "topping up" and virtually eliminates the danger of a hydrogen gas explosion. Corrosion is eliminated because the acid spray and fumes are contained within the cell. In general, and under normal conditions, R+ Recombination Caps decrease the frequency of watering intervals by three times - meaning up to 3 fewer annual watering / maintenance intervals.

In Summary – R+ Recombination Caps:

1. Drastically reduce the amount of time and money you spend on "topping up" your batteries.
2. Virtually eliminate the risk the venting of hydrogen gas can cause.
3. Contain corrosive elements - which increase the life of your battery and decrease cleaning time.
4. Provide the user with all the benefits of a flooded type battery with minimal maintenance similar to sealed batteries.
5. Increases watering interval by three times. This can be as long as 12 months.

[TheViper]

I guess we are referring to different things. I am referring to the intrinsic design of AGM technology batteries where the hydrogen gas is recirculated within the battery by virtue of the pressure relief valve which only opens to vent gas if the pressure reaches a certain threshold. The item you are referring to seems to pertain only to wet cell batteries and are used to recirculate the gases and duplicate the feature of AGM's. These valves, obviously can only be fitted to wet cells because of their open cap fill holes. They seem to be trying to duplicate the recirculation feature inherent in AGM's.
Michael

[Lancia]

The optima has the same wet cell chemistry in a matrix.
That's the only difference.
The optima uses the same venting system as many low maintenance wet cells.
Optima seems aware of the option and indicated it was a cost issue.

Agms could use the same technology.
Optimas vent the same chemicals as other wet cells when they vent.
There is no filter.
And there is that same explosive risk.

Most people use this feature for maintenance issues though.
It seems geared for large fixed systems.
But I have seen it marketed for vehicles.

[TheViper]

I believe that these caps would only be suitable for wet cells with refillable caps, correct?
Michael

Originally Posted by Lancia

The optima has the same wet cell chemistry in a matrix.
That's the only difference.
The optima uses the same venting system as many low maintenance wet cells.
Optima seems aware of the option and indicated it was a cost issue.

Agms could use the same technology.
Optimas vent the same chemicals as other wet cells when they vent.
There is no filter.
And there is that same explosive risk.

Most people use this feature for maintenance issues though.
It seems geared for large fixed systems.
But I have seen it marketed for vehicles.

[Lancia]

A company can integrate the catalyst into the design of their own vent.
I'm sure that's what optima was referring to.
All the add-on ones I've seen are designed for some type of cap threads.

[TheViper]

All AGM's including Optima use the same same pressure related recirculation system, therefore I fail to see what these caps (which are unusable on all AGM's will accomplish, please explain?
Michael

[Lancia]

Optima just uses a vent.
I talked to Surrette and their agm line does not include this technology.

The catalyst recombines the gas into water to the best of it's ability, then vents if there is too much pressure.
A vented space is still necessary if not as critical.

Hydrocaps are supposed to be good.
Watermiser not so much.
It is a function of the quality of the catalyst.
Get what you pay for sort of thing.

[Lancia]

I found a company offering an agm battery with recombinant technology built in.
They also offer agm gel cells.
I'm going to be looking into their nicads myself.

Power Battery - High Rate VRLA

[TheViper]

How are these caps used practically in batteries that are available?
Michael

[Lancia]

They have snap on/bayonet and threaded types of caps.


Some of these questions don't seem to have obvious answers.

Agm batteries were designed originally for standby low maintenance use with a variable output charger or a very low power charger, essentially identical to gel cell use.
Pretty much the opposite of car battery use.

As I suspected, the quality of the matting tends to also capture the gasses to allow them to recombine during cycling.
This works well in slow discharge applications.
It is unclear if the vrla I posted uses catalysts or enhanced matting.
But it is two different approaches, not exclusive though.

So the answer is that agms do tend to not vent, depending on design quality and use.
But most are not directly catalyzing the gases.

Maybe we have reached the point where that level of tech for a lead battery cannot compete with nicad for a car, from a cost standpoint?
I don't know what is used as a catalyst, but it is expensive.

[TheViper]

I still do not understand their practicality. They can't be used with AGM's, the advantage amongst many is they have no accessible vent caps and don't leak in any orientation. Installing them on a wet cell battery will give results that are inferior to an AGM so what it is the point. A catalyst is something that changes the properties of an element without sacrificing it's self, I don't see that in this product.
Michael