Jump Starting Questions - LotusTalk

wf758 · 12-01-2008, 07:45 PM

I've been out here for over an hour trying to get the car to start. Jumpers are hooked up to my Tahoe, with Negative on Tahoe run to frame. Interior lights and electrical system working again in Exige. However, even after charging for 45 minutes, when I try to start it, it just makes a sound like "tat tat tat tat tat". I've had my wife try revving the Tahoe while trying to start the car but that didn't help.

Am I doing something wrong? Never had a problem jump starting a car before, but this is the first time with the Lotus.

I tried SEARCH, but didn't find anything. However, it is cold and I need to get back to some work...so maybe I didn't read closely enough.

Thanks,
Will

xeeeejme · 12-01-2008, 08:18 PM

Are you jumping straight to the battery or using the posts under the access panel up front? Not sure that would matter, but worth a shot.

Randy Chase · 12-01-2008, 08:28 PM

Make sure you are making a good connection. Where on the frame is the ground connection? Have you tried connecting to the Exige's battery terminals directly?

tat tat means what? Is it a clicking noise?

Why was the battery dead to start with? What made you think it was dead?

Have you taken a peek at the primary wiring to make sure the connections are tight. Not uncommon to have the battery connections come loose.

wf758 · 12-01-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeeeejme

Are you jumping straight to the battery or using the posts under the access panel up front? Not sure that would matter, but worth a shot.

battery directly. maybe i'll try posts tomorrow. Given up for tonight. Thanks.

Randy Chase · 12-01-2008, 08:51 PM

If it does not start hooked to the battery, the posts will not help. Unless you have a bad connection.

wf758 · 12-01-2008, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Make sure you are making a good connection. Where on the frame is the ground connection? Have you tried connecting to the Exige's battery terminals directly?

Yes, was directly on battery terminals on Exige

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

tat tat means what? Is it a clicking noise?

Hard to describe (I feel like one of those commercials where you are describing the indescribable!) Whole car goes off and on in a series of tats as I hold down Start Button. That means instrument cluster lights flash with the tats and it sounds like it wants to roll the engine over, but just won't quite do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Why was the battery dead to start with? What made you think it was dead?

Sorry...another post. I either created a short when hardwiring my V1...or I left the light on after installing the V1 bracket. In any event, after working on the electrical system, i let the car sit for three weeks. Tried to fire it up last night and all was dead. Since car battery charged a little on the Tahoe, interior lights now come on. So i'm fairly certain battery is dead. Not quite sure of the cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

Have you taken a peek at the primary wiring to make sure the connections are tight. Not uncommon to have the battery connections come loose.

No, thanks...I was just researching and saw that was an issue. I'll check it out.

Randy Chase · 12-01-2008, 08:55 PM

OK... one other thing, try disconnecting your battery and then hooking it to the jumper cables on the Tahoe. In case your battery is dead shorted and sucking power.

BUT... a low battery should not cause the TAT TAT thing you are describing. Either it causes the solenoid to engage and spin the starter... or not. And if not, you will hear a clicking. If so... the engine will crank.

I am wondering if you have not solved what was the real problem yet.

TheViper · 12-02-2008, 04:02 AM

The noise at starting sounds like a bad jumper cable connection. The clamps on cables are not contoured well to conform to a battery post and therefore there is a high resistance, check those connections. It is normal to make the grounded frame connection on the car that has the dead battery, not the other way around, although not sure if in practice it would matter, something to try though. You can aways charge the battery as an alternative.
Michael

shadowhusky · 12-02-2008, 06:11 AM

This might be a dumb question, but with these ares being so light couldn't you just push start it if the battery dies. I have done it to other cars in the past, but I don't know if it would work on the Lotus because of the electrical system

ZAMMY1 · 12-02-2008, 06:59 AM

do the bumpers line up??
SORRY, JUST BEING A SMART A$$.

i had a similar problem and indeed, had to change the battery.
new battery, all is happy. the car's battery had apparently opened up and i couldn't jump it effectively.
good luck, sam

Ren Man · 12-02-2008, 08:04 AM

Jumpers are hooked up to my Tahoe, with Negative on Tahoe run to frame.

First make sure that the connection points are clean and tight. Also you could try hooking directly to the battery, you could be on a questionable spot on the Tahoe frame. The tat,tat,tat sounds like it is clost to starting but just not quite there so giving it the best possible connections might help. Also a battery tender might not be a bad idea if you leave it for extended periods.

ads_green · 12-02-2008, 11:00 AM

The tat tat tat sounds like the starter solenoid. Usually means that there's enough power to do things but not enough to start. It prevents damage to the cat by stopping the car turning over with no chance of starting.

Be very careful push starting a car - you really shouldn't push start cars fitted with cat converters as you end up with fuel being dumped into the cat which can overheat it very very quickly. An overheated cat + aluminimum / fibre glass car isn't good.

Once a battery completely discharges it'll start to form small crystals in the electolyte. This significantly reduces the capacity of the battery - It'll be able to hold volts but no amps (ie you'll be able to see 12-14v on a voltmeter but as soon as you try to start it it'll just not work).

The only options in this case is to get a automatic battery conditioner and leave it on for a day or two (you can get some that plug into the cigarette lighter socket as you drive and continue the job). These modulate the car's powersupply to breakdown the crystals and restore the battery back to health.

Other than that a new battery. Trying to charge a discharged battery doesn't usually work too well.

Hello Kitty · 12-02-2008, 12:23 PM

The frame of the lotus is aluminum, and aluminum does not conduct electricity. Connect red to red, black to black, on the batteries themselves.

Randy Chase · 12-02-2008, 12:24 PM

Actually aluminum is an excellent conductor. It has issues with thermal expansion, different materials, corrosion... but the material itself conducts well.

TimMullen · 12-02-2008, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheViper

It is normal to make the grounded frame connection on the car that has the dead battery, not the other way around, although not sure if in practice it would matter,

It doesn't matter which one is connected to "frame". The purpose is to make the last connection to a place other than the negative battery post, because as you make that connection, you are going to get a spark (and when you disconnect too). Although unlikely, it is possible that one (or both) of the batteries will vent hydrogen gas and it is possible for the spark to ignite it and cause an explosion. By making the last connection to the "frame", it moves the spark away from the battery and lessens the chance of an explosion (which is already pretty small).

Now, the reason that I have been putting "frame" in quotes is that what you really want to connect to is a good ground. If you are in fact connecting the jumper cable clamp to a painted frame surface, you aren't' getting a good electrical connection. You want to connect to a sizable chunk of bare metal. I find that the best connection is usually to the alternator housing or it's mounting tabs. It is bare metal that is solidly connected to the engine block to provide an electrical path for the electricity it's generating. Clamp to that, or to one of the engine lifting "hooks" on an engine to get a good electrical connection. If that isn't easy to do, 99.9% of the time you can just connect to the battery posts without a problem - but if there are any funny smells, or it's in a closed area (like the boot of the car), make sure you ventilate it first to let any possible explosive fumes dissipate.

ads_green · 12-02-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hello Kitty

The frame of the lotus is aluminum, and aluminum does not conduct electricity. Connect red to red, black to black, on the batteries themselves.

Do NOT follow this advice to jump start the car. The correct procedure is positive to positive direct connection. Negative of the good battery to an earth point on the chassis of car containing the flat battery.

ads_green · 12-02-2008, 12:35 PM

Edit: covered above

TheViper · 12-02-2008, 12:52 PM

One reason I am adverse to clamping to the frame is, (even though is is safer), as you pointed out, it is either painted or possibly corroded. Additionally it is frequently difficult to get a clamp connection of sufficient area to pass the required amps due to the contouring of the clamp. Take a look at a typical clamp connection and you will see it often is only contacting at the high points, not enough area to pass that starting current. I have re-contoured my jumper cable clamps to make better contact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimMullen

It doesn't matter which one is connected to "frame". The purpose is to make the last connection to a place other than the negative battery post, because as you make that connection, you are going to get a spark (and when you disconnect too). Although unlikely, it is possible that one (or both) of the batteries will vent hydrogen gas and it is possible for the spark to ignite it and cause an explosion. By making the last connection to the "frame", it moves the spark away from the battery and lessens the chance of an explosion (which is already pretty small).

Now, the reason that I have been putting "frame" in quotes is that what you really want to connect to is a good ground. If you are in fact connecting the jumper cable clamp to a painted frame surface, you aren't' getting a good electrical connection. You want to connect to a sizable chunk of bare metal. I find that the best connection is usually to the alternator housing or it's mounting tabs. It is bare metal that is solidly connected to the engine block to provide an electrical path for the electricity it's generating. Clamp to that, or to one of the engine lifting "hooks" on an engine to get a good electrical connection. If that isn't easy to do, 99.9% of the time you can just connect to the battery posts without a problem - but if there are any funny smells, or it's in a closed area (like the boot of the car), make sure you ventilate it first to let any possible explosive fumes dissipate.

Randy Chase · 12-02-2008, 12:57 PM

I agree. And since I use a solid sealed battery, there is less risk of a bunch of hydrogen being outgassed (I think). I don't worry about the risk of spark and just jump to the battery.

But YMMV

ads_green · 12-02-2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Chase

I agree. And since I use a solid sealed battery, there is less risk of a bunch of hydrogen being outgassed (I think). I don't worry about the risk of spark and just jump to the battery.

But YMMV

"Sealed" isn't really sealed. It just means that oxygen produced at the positive electrode during charging is reclaimed internally to stablise the electolyte and make it more maintenance free (no need to top up with distilled water). Hydrogen can (and does) still escape the battery as they have a pressure valve to prevent it building up in the battery.

Most modern cars have a decent earth post - it doesn't need to be the frame it can be the engine or a bolt

12-01-2008, 07:45 PM	#1 (permalink)
wf758 CRUS8R Join Date: May 2008 Location: Tejas Posts: 143	Jump Starting Questions I've been out here for over an hour trying to get the car to start. Jumpers are hooked up to my Tahoe, with Negative on Tahoe run to frame. Interior lights and electrical system working again in Exige. However, even after charging for 45 minutes, when I try to start it, it just makes a sound like "tat tat tat tat tat". I've had my wife try revving the Tahoe while trying to start the car but that didn't help. Am I doing something wrong? Never had a problem jump starting a car before, but this is the first time with the Lotus. I tried SEARCH, but didn't find anything. However, it is cold and I need to get back to some work...so maybe I didn't read closely enough. Thanks, Will __________________ Will 2007 Lotus Exige S - Tow Eye, Boomerang, Sector 111 re-Enforcer, Stan's fix, Alex's 1/4 Turn Kit, Hardwired V1, Rearview Mirror Delete, Saikou Michi Catch Cans, Odyssey PC680 & Sector 111 Bracket, Bane's Stealth Bulbs, more to come...

12-01-2008, 08:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
xeeeejme Add Lightness Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Triangle, NC Posts: 376	Are you jumping straight to the battery or using the posts under the access panel up front? Not sure that would matter, but worth a shot. __________________ '06 CO Exige - sold

12-01-2008, 08:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,172 Images: 761	Make sure you are making a good connection. Where on the frame is the ground connection? Have you tried connecting to the Exige's battery terminals directly? tat tat means what? Is it a clicking noise? Why was the battery dead to start with? What made you think it was dead? Have you taken a peek at the primary wiring to make sure the connections are tight. Not uncommon to have the battery connections come loose. __________________ [b]* V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S [/b] We have been feeling the buzz since 2002 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. [color=orange]Monaco Orange. [/color]Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). [color=orange]Chrome Orange. [/color] Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle. [color=blue]“Busy at times off the forum and scary* actually off the Internets. So I may not see your pm or emails for a while"[/color]

12-01-2008, 08:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,172 Images: 761	If it does not start hooked to the battery, the posts will not help. Unless you have a bad connection. __________________ [b]* V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S [/b] We have been feeling the buzz since 2002 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. [color=orange]Monaco Orange. [/color]Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). [color=orange]Chrome Orange. [/color] Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle. [color=blue]“Busy at times off the forum and scary* actually off the Internets. So I may not see your pm or emails for a while"[/color]

12-01-2008, 08:55 PM	#7 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,172 Images: 761	OK... one other thing, try disconnecting your battery and then hooking it to the jumper cables on the Tahoe. In case your battery is dead shorted and sucking power. BUT... a low battery should not cause the TAT TAT thing you are describing. Either it causes the solenoid to engage and spin the starter... or not. And if not, you will hear a clicking. If so... the engine will crank. I am wondering if you have not solved what was the real problem yet. __________________ [b]* V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S [/b] We have been feeling the buzz since 2002 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. [color=orange]Monaco Orange. [/color]Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). [color=orange]Chrome Orange. [/color] Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle. [color=blue]“Busy at times off the forum and scary* actually off the Internets. So I may not see your pm or emails for a while"[/color]

12-02-2008, 04:02 AM	#8 (permalink)
TheViper Alarmed & Dangerous Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Boca Raton FL Posts: 3,190	The noise at starting sounds like a bad jumper cable connection. The clamps on cables are not contoured well to conform to a battery post and therefore there is a high resistance, check those connections. It is normal to make the grounded frame connection on the car that has the dead battery, not the other way around, although not sure if in practice it would matter, something to try though. You can aways charge the battery as an alternative. Michael __________________ Cobra OEM - Alarm, Immobilizer, CDL Emergency Override with warranty Additional Emergency Touch Keys - see link above Brand New Cobra Alarm Remote with warranty Cobra Remote Key Fob Strap Cobra Window Closing Module - Add to your existing Cobra alarm 3 Piece Front Clam Protection Kit with Center Bumper Undertray Removal Tool INFORMATION Improved AC & Heating System Battery Choices & Information Remote Key Fob, Alarm & Immobilizer Programming Light Bulb Conversions 2005

12-02-2008, 06:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
shadowhusky Registered User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: East China, Michigan Posts: 343	This might be a dumb question, but with these ares being so light couldn't you just push start it if the battery dies. I have done it to other cars in the past, but I don't know if it would work on the Lotus because of the electrical system __________________ 2005 Elise, Aubergine, Touring Pack, Sport Pack, Hardtop, Quicksilver Exhaust, Cup Air Box, Tilting Clam, Mesh Grills all around - ( fabricated, not purchased ) 55w 6000k HID's, Painted Engine Covers, Center Console, A/C Surround, Polished Shifter Arm, Ball,and E-Brake Handle, Multivex Mirrors. 2008 Jeep Liberty, Jeep Green Metallic 2002 VW Jetta TDI, Metallic Blue, Daily Driver, 155,000 miles and going strong

12-02-2008, 06:59 AM	#10 (permalink)
ZAMMY1 ZAMMY Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: washington, pa, (near PGH.) Posts: 1,557	do the bumpers line up?? SORRY, JUST BEING A SMART A$$. i had a similar problem and indeed, had to change the battery. new battery, all is happy. the car's battery had apparently opened up and i couldn't jump it effectively. good luck, sam

12-02-2008, 08:04 AM	#11 (permalink)
Ren Man Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 203	Jumpers are hooked up to my Tahoe, with Negative on Tahoe run to frame. First make sure that the connection points are clean and tight. Also you could try hooking directly to the battery, you could be on a questionable spot on the Tahoe frame. The tat,tat,tat sounds like it is clost to starting but just not quite there so giving it the best possible connections might help. Also a battery tender might not be a bad idea if you leave it for extended periods.

12-02-2008, 11:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
ads_green Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 318	The tat tat tat sounds like the starter solenoid. Usually means that there's enough power to do things but not enough to start. It prevents damage to the cat by stopping the car turning over with no chance of starting. Be very careful push starting a car - you really shouldn't push start cars fitted with cat converters as you end up with fuel being dumped into the cat which can overheat it very very quickly. An overheated cat + aluminimum / fibre glass car isn't good. Once a battery completely discharges it'll start to form small crystals in the electolyte. This significantly reduces the capacity of the battery - It'll be able to hold volts but no amps (ie you'll be able to see 12-14v on a voltmeter but as soon as you try to start it it'll just not work). The only options in this case is to get a automatic battery conditioner and leave it on for a day or two (you can get some that plug into the cigarette lighter socket as you drive and continue the job). These modulate the car's powersupply to breakdown the crystals and restore the battery back to health. Other than that a new battery. Trying to charge a discharged battery doesn't usually work too well.

12-02-2008, 12:23 PM	#13 (permalink)
Hello Kitty Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 554	The frame of the lotus is aluminum, and aluminum does not conduct electricity. Connect red to red, black to black, on the batteries themselves.

12-02-2008, 12:24 PM	#14 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,172 Images: 761	Actually aluminum is an excellent conductor. It has issues with thermal expansion, different materials, corrosion... but the material itself conducts well. __________________ [b]* V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S [/b] We have been feeling the buzz since 2002 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. [color=orange]Monaco Orange. [/color]Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). [color=orange]Chrome Orange. [/color] Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle. [color=blue]“Busy at times off the forum and scary* actually off the Internets. So I may not see your pm or emails for a while"[/color]

12-02-2008, 12:35 PM	#17 (permalink)
ads_green Registered User Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 318	Edit: covered above

12-02-2008, 12:57 PM	#19 (permalink)
Randy Chase Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: San Diego and where ever the roads lead Posts: 28,172 Images: 761	I agree. And since I use a solid sealed battery, there is less risk of a bunch of hydrogen being outgassed (I think). I don't worry about the risk of spark and just jump to the battery. But YMMV __________________ [b]* V E R I T A S * A E Q U I T A S [/b] We have been feeling the buzz since 2002 2006 Noble M400. Getrag tranny, Quaiffe LSD, Hinged clams. Duratec dual turbo V6. Hoosier 315-18 tires. 2350 pounds. Over 500hp. Track weapon. 2009 Rossion Q1. [color=orange]Monaco Orange. [/color]Wing. Black leather/Alcantara with orange stitching. The street car. In build: 2009 Toniq R (300whp? 1100 pounds?). [color=orange]Chrome Orange. [/color] Lexus GX-470 tow vehicle. [color=blue]“Busy at times off the forum and scary* actually off the Internets. So I may not see your pm or emails for a while"[/color]

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