New lightweight battery solution - Deka - I think its identical to Braille 2015

[TheViper]

Good work Specs mean nothing unless they are defined.
Michael

Originally Posted by RoadDad

I just got off the phone with Lou at East Penn Manufacturing.

Here's the deal per our conversation.

East Penn manufactures the Deka battery. We know that. Braille then takes that same East Penn Deka battery and does "some fancy stuff" to it (specific to the model apparently like putting it in a carbon case, fancy copper terminal) and does some fancy marketing. None of the "fancy stuff" changes the performance or specs of the battery at all. The inerts of both the Braille and the Deka remain identical.

jlj3394, nice find. Thanks.

[MikeG911]

Does Sector111 still make the battery bracket? I only see one which has the switch.

[jlj3394]

Here it is with the disconnect: Xtender for Lotus Elise & Exige

It doesn't appear that they sell the bracket on its own, but I'm sure if you called they would.

[shinoo]

Are we comparing the same batteries? I'm looking at the spec sheets & finding the Dekas to be way lower than the Braille. What am I missing?

Braille B2015 = 15lb = 425 Cold Cranking Amps @ 0 degF (Braille Spec Sheet)
Deka ETX14 = 12lb = 200 CCA @ 0 degF ( Deka spec sheet)
Deka ETX20 = 15.5lb = 270 CCA @ 0 deg F (see spec sheet above)

The Deka Brand ETX20 is rated at 270CCA and carry’s a 90 day warranty against product defects and will only be replaced if found to be below that rating. It is also only warranted for powersports use - not automotive. The ETX14 is rated even lower.

The Braille B2015 is rated at 425 CCA and carry’s a 2 year warranty which covers race and street Automotive use. All B2015 models are quality controlled and cycle tested to perform above this spec and are guaranteed for performance.

I believe starting with a more powerful battery is the best bet against the inevitable power degradation that will take place on all these batteries.

[TheViper]

Actually, if more powerful is defined as greater CCA, that has very little to do with the longevity of the battery. Longevity is determined by the conditions a battery is subjected to.
Michael

Originally Posted by shinoo

Are we comparing the same batteries? I'm looking at the spec sheets & finding the Dekas to be way lower than the Braille. What am I missing?

Braille B2015 = 15lb = 425 Cold Cranking Amps @ 0 degF (Braille Spec Sheet)
Deka ETX14 = 12lb = 200 CCA @ 0 degF ( Deka spec sheet)
Deka ETX20 = 15.5lb = 270 CCA @ 0 deg F (see spec sheet above)

The Deka Brand ETX20 is rated at 270CCA and carry’s a 90 day warranty against product defects and will only be replaced if found to be below that rating. It is also only warranted for powersports use - not automotive. The ETX14 is rated even lower.

The Braille B2015 is rated at 425 CCA and carry’s a 2 year warranty which covers race and street Automotive use. All B2015 models are quality controlled and cycle tested to perform above this spec and are guaranteed for performance.

I believe starting with a more powerful battery is the best bet against the inevitable power degradation that will take place on all these batteries.

[jlj3394]

Box says 1 year warranty - full replacement, no pro-rating.

Why don't you guys just sell both?

[shinoo]

Originally Posted by TheViper

Actually, if more powerful is defined as greater CCA, that has very little to do with the longevity of the battery. Longevity is determined by the conditions a battery is subjected to.
Michael

So if both a Deka and Braille are subjected to the same conditions, which will have more CCAs at the end?

[shinoo]

Originally Posted by jlj3394

Box says 1 year warranty - full replacement, no pro-rating.

Why don't you guys just sell both?

I may. I am just trying to address the posts that suggest that the Deka is as good as the Braille when the published specs don't even support such claims.

[RoadDad]

I got my information by conversing directly with the East Penn (the company that manufactures the working parts of both batteries), not by reading anything on the 'net or in a product brochure. My question was essentially what is the difference between the 2 batteries. They said no difference other than a fancy jacket, top hat and bragging. The guts under all that fancy stuff are the same. When I asked if there was any difference in the performance or specs of the 2 batteries I was told directly no.

Perhaps that 425 CCA is some of the "fancy marketing" that Braille does . Have you tested the CCA of the battery?

[TheViper]

If you refer to my battery schedule Battery Choices & Information and compare the listed popular Braille & Deka models, it is difficult to determine which ones if any are comparable. Possibly the Braille 129 & the Deka EXT12, however the AH and CCA are very different. In answer to your question, you can have 2 identical batteries, same make and model, used under the same conditions and they will degrade differently from each other. It's not a perfect science.
Michael

Originally Posted by shinoo

So if both a Deka and Braille are subjected to the same conditions, which will have more CCAs at the end?

[CHRISN]

All I know is that I purchased the DEKA and my car starts just the same as when I had a Braile.
DEKA FTW.

Chris

[shinoo]

Originally Posted by RoadDad

I got my information by conversing directly with the East Penn (the company that manufactures the working parts of both batteries), not by reading anything on the 'net or in a product brochure. My question was essentially what is the difference between the 2 batteries. They said no difference other than a fancy jacket, top hat and bragging. The guts under all that fancy stuff are the same. When I asked if there was any difference in the performance or specs of the 2 batteries I was told directly no.

Perhaps that 425 CCA is some of the "fancy marketing" that Braille does . Have you tested the CCA of the battery?

I will call Lou and ask him this question. Seems strange that their CCA claim is so low and they lack a warranty for automotive use if the products are the same?

You are right, I have not done the testing but I know Braille has. I spoke directly with Blake the owner and he has always been honest with me. There is nothing 'fancy' about their marketing claims. It is a straight forward spec sheet that states the result of a specific test. Braille's claim is backed with a 2 yr warranty for automotive use.

[lwein]

It's just a battery,guys-----perhaps this one?
Submarine Batteries

note the size and the weight------------of ONE cell


World War II American fleet submarines had two batteries, each composed of 126 cells. By comparison, a 12-volt car battery contains only 6 cells, each producing about 2.25 volts when fully charged, with a maximum power output of about 45-50 amps. Each cell in a submarine battery produces from 1.06 volts when fully discharged, to 2.75 volts at optimum output, so connecting the 126 cells in each battery in series gives a usable output of from about 210 to 350 volts, and a power output of as much as 15,000 amps with both batteries connected in parallel. (In earlier submarines, the two batteries could be connected in series for additional voltage, but this was no longer done with the much higher capacity fleet submarine batteries.)

Each cell was about 54 inches high, 15 inches deep, and 21 inches wide, and weighed about 1,650 pounds. The two primary manufacturers were the Exide Corporation (now Exide Technologies) and the Gould Storage Battery Company (now Gould Electronics, Inc.). Each battery cell was housed in a separate acid-proof tank as a precaution against leakage, as the electrolyte was highly corrosive and could seriously weaken the pressure hull if a leak went undetected.

The battery cells were made up of lead plates, suspended in a sulfuric acid/water solution, exactly like that used in car batteries. As the cells were charged, the breakdown of the water portion of the electrolyte could produce hydrogen gas. This was removed through an elaborate ventilation system and discharged outside the pressure hull. If allowed to accumulate, of course, this gas would constitute an explosion hazard.

An additional hazard, which could be encountered in unusual circumstances, was salt water contamination of the batteries. If salt water mixed with the electrolyte, chlorine gas could be produced, with obvious dangers to the crew. A limited chlorine gas problem added to the woes of the Squalus survivors as they awaited rescue.

The battery cells required daily service. This was usually delegated to the junior members of the electrical department, who could generally be identified by the white spots on their dungarees from acid splashes. Because of the quantities of distilled water needed to keep the cells topped up, it was supplied through a hose from large tanks adjacent to the battery compartments. The space above the battery compartments was used for accomodations, with the officers' staterooms, wardroom, and chief petty officers' quarters above the forward battery and the main crew berthing area above the after battery.

Improvement in battery technology and capacity was always an important goal in submarine design. A larger battery would allow longer submerged operation and greater speed. One of the main features of the GUPPY conversions following the war was increasing battery capacity.

All original content © 2002 by FleetSubmarine.com. All rights reserved.


FleetSubmarine.com

[shinoo]

Update: I just spoke with an East Penn Customer Service Rep named Lou. He was a nice guy who says that their claims are not overstated - in fact conservative. I got the details of the CCA@0degF test method they follow from Lou. I have called Braille as well but they are at the Petit Leman race until Monday. I want to see what test method Braille follows to see if this explains the difference (270vs425).

I will post my findings once I speak with Blake@Braille.

[TheViper]

This is the definition of "Cold Cranking Amps" (CCA) and the parameters of the test. It is very precise and I can't understand that different manufacturers would apply a different conditions to the test.
Cold cranking amperes (CCA) is the amount of current a battery can provide at 0 °F (−18 °C). The rating is defined as the current a lead-acid battery at that temperature can deliver for 30 seconds and maintain at least 1.2 volts per cell (7.2 volts for a 12-volt battery).
Michael

[jlj3394]

Originally Posted by TheViper

This is the definition of "Cold Cranking Amps" (CCA) and the parameters of the test. It is very precise and I can't understand that different manufacturers would apply a different conditions to the test.
Cold cranking amperes (CCA) is the amount of current a battery can provide at 0 °F (−18 °C). The rating is defined as the current a lead-acid battery at that temperature can deliver for 30 seconds and maintain at least 1.2 volts per cell (7.2 volts for a 12-volt battery).
Michael

I would think it would have more to do with how the different companies define the claims. Perhaps one is more conservative than the other. One might do a test at a certain temperature, or with certain equipment etc. Just think about how much dyno #'s vary from brand to brand and even within the same brand.

It will be interesting to see what Shinoo at S111 finds out.

BTW, kudos to them for looking into this - it seems clear they're more concerned about the truth than consistency. They're a good company to work with.

[TheViper]

Actually, on modern vehicles with systems that require a high battery demand, Amp Hours (AH) is more important than Cold Cranking Amps (CCA). Starting a vehicle is relatively easy compared to the loads placed on the battery during, and after engine operation.
Michael

[jlj3394]

FWIW , the temp was ~35 this morning and it fired right up.

Shinoo - what did your conversations with the Braille folks reveal?

[Eyelise]

I ordered a Deka ETX12 $67 delivered.

[shinoo]

Originally Posted by jlj3394

Shinoo - what did your conversations with the Braille folks reveal?

We tested both Deka and Braille and found out the performance to be similar. I have submitted the data to Braille. I am awaiting their response. Will keep you posted.