Replacement battery

[ChrisStarrUSA]

Gang,

In view of the leaking battery syndrome that has been mentioned numerous times in other threads, does anyone have better battery ideas.

I'm looking for a battery that is sealed (for no leaking issues), performs at least as well as stock in cranking, etc., is the same or lower weight than the stock battery, and mounts using the stock mounting setup. Price is a lower consideration. Any ideas?

Thanks!

Chris

[ekological]

Originally Posted by ChrisStarrUSA

I'm looking for a battery that is sealed (for no leaking issues), performs at least as well as stock in cranking, etc., is the same or lower weight than the stock battery, and mounts using the stock mounting setup. Price is a lower consideration. Any ideas?

I'd imagine you'd be pretty happy with an Optima. For me, I'm going to try the Odyssey battery.

[adamant]

My self and others have covered this numerous times here. I don't have time to link it right now but get an Odysey(sp) cant rember PC535 or PC545. Anyway the one I dont have is the better one. Lose a lot of weight and no spills. My 11lb battery is now getting on for 6mo old and no problems whatever except for me not tightening the cable on tight enough

[qball]

What all is needed? Just the battery? Is a special hold-down clamp needed too?

[ChrisStarrUSA]

Thanks Adam - saw those posts, but I understood the Odyssey would need new bracket hardware. While those are light and great batteries, I'm not a racer or mechanically inclined and was hoping for a simple swap (no new bracket installation)...

[drrjv]

Take your pick. Unsure which is best:

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc545.htm

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/specs.htm

http://www.batteriesareus.com/shop/p...products_id=61

http://www.autobarn.net/opbat720cca.html

[adamant]

Chris,
The stock battery is already pretty light. If you check those posts, I can't remember who but there was one Odyssey type that still used the stock hardware to mount the battery. That would be the easiest to do and it will get rid of the acid spillage problem.

Someone ought to make replacement hardware similar to the ones I fabricated as they are not really that hard to build but I understand that not veryone wants to do this themselves.
Shinoo! Are you listening? I am sure people would buy them for $19.99

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by adamant

...
Someone ought to make replacement hardware similar to the ones I fabricated as they are not really that hard to build but I understand that not veryone wants to do this themselves.
Shinoo! Are you listening? I am sure people would buy them for $19.99

And while you are at it, why not make a kit to move the battery to the right hand side of the car for better weight distribution? Or, use an Optima light weight battery and move it to the engine compartment so there is less weight so far back.

[KMS Elise]

I installed (5 month ago) Odyssey 680 on mine using a factory battery holder without any mods and works very well. I track my car and it stays there. But there will be a new battery on the market that weigh less than 4lbs very soon. I will have mine next week.

[raggedy1]

less than 4 pounds?!?
who's the manufacturer and when will it be widely available?

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by KMS Elise

I installed (5 month ago) Odyssey 680 on mine using a factory battery holder without any mods and works very well. I track my car and it stays there. But there will be a new battery on the market that weigh less than 4lbs very soon. I will have mine next week.

Cmon give it up

[KMS Elise]

We found out about this battery last year and we approached the manufacturer (Enax) about acquiring them. Since then,we've agreed to help promote their Automobile batteries in the USA. Sector111 / Arqray USA will have it on our demo car (Elise) from next month and it will be displayed at the several major events including the SEMA show. These batteries are a newly redesigned Li-ion Battery especially made to use on the automobiles. Also they have a unique cell design that eliminated previous problems associated with a large scale Li-Ion design. If you are interested in finding out more about them please PM me.

**They won't be available widely for a while. But we should be able to take special orders soon.

[ChrisH]

Enax web page
Extraenergy.org pretest report

The Enax web site indicates that the battery would cost 71,400 JPY, which is about $660 today. Ouch! They also state "instead of 134,400 JPY" ($1242), but I don't know what they meant by that.

They only specify the operating temperature down to -10C (14F). They only tested up to 40C (104F), but didn't say if it could work higher.

Battery weight: 2Kg = 4.4 pounds (including housing)

Li-ion batteries typically last 600 to 800 recharge cycles, but since you don't generally do a lot of deep discharges in a car battery, I don't know what that would mean to us.

Enax states that they expect to warranty the battery for 2 years, which they say is also the life expectancy of the battery (pretty short).

So, if you really want to lose another 7.6 pounds (compared to dry-cell alternatives for about $80 and 12 pounds - Odyssey PC545), this would translate to paying (660-80)/7.6 = $76 per pound of weight reduction, which would have to be repeated every few years.
Odyssey prices

P.S. I make no special claim to the accuracy of this information as I simply got it off of Enax's web site and the batteryweb.com web site, and drew some simple-minded conclusions.

[KMS Elise]

Info was about their initial testing on the prototype battery. What you read is 19 months old. You must have missed the dates. Why don't you let us handle this since we are the ones promoting them? Thank you for your work but we don't need your help at the moment. By the way why are you so negative? If you are not sure, like you have stated, then we sure would appreciate you contacting us first, like we asked at the end of our post.

Originally Posted by ChrisH

Enax web page
Extraenergy.org pretest report

The Enax web site indicates that the battery would cost 71,400 JPY, which is about $660 today. Ouch! They also state "instead of 134,400 JPY" ($1242), but I don't know what they meant by that.

They only specify the operating temperature down to -10C (14F). They only tested up to 40C (104F), but didn't say if it could work higher.

Battery weight: 2Kg = 4.4 pounds (including housing)

Li-ion batteries typically last 600 to 800 recharge cycles, but since you don't generally do a lot of deep discharges in a car battery, I don't know what that would mean to us.

Enax states that they expect to warranty the battery for 2 years, which they say is also the life expectancy of the battery (pretty short).

So, if you really want to lose another 7.6 pounds (compared to dry-cell alternatives for about $80 and 12 pounds - Odyssey PC545), this would translate to paying (660-80)/7.6 = $76 per pound of weight reduction, which would have to be repeated every few years.
Odyssey prices

P.S. I make no special claim to the accuracy of this information as I simply got it off of Enax's web site and the batteryweb.com web site, and drew some simple-minded conclusions.

[BrettP]

We eagerly look forward to these batteries being imported Shinoo! The weight savings will totally negate my entire turbo package on the Lotus. Awesome.

[rob13572468]

you need to be careful when using li-ion batteries as vehicle batteries. you cannot simply replace a standard wet cell with a li-ion battery.

the reason for this has to do with how li-ion batteries need to be charged: they use an algorithm called CC-CV or constant current- constant voltage. This is facilitated by charging with constant current until the nominal voltage of the cell is reached (~13 volts for a vehicle battery) and then switching to constant voltage at the 13 volts until the current used drops to zero. to add to this, Li-Ion cannot fast charge as this will increase their temperature above the cell physical limits.

Automotive electrical systems use a standard charging system with a constant voltage , usually 13.8-14.4 volts when the engine is running. the alternator will attempt to keep the voltage within those limits regardless of the load on the system. Automotive systems also keep the battery, alternator, and electrical circuits constantly and physically connected together, which is a problem with li-ion since the changing draw of the circuits make it impossible to keep current constant to the battery.

Li-ion cells, because of the charging characteristics use a charging circuit that has two states; during battery usage, the battery is connected to the load circuit. In the other state, charging, the battery is disconnected from the load circuit, and the charging circuit then sits between the charging source and the battery, allowing the voltage and current to be properly regulated until the charge is complete. at the same time, the charging voltage is also directed to the load circuit to provide power as well. this is similar to how a laptop works: in charge mode, the A/C adapter powers the laptop as well as provide power to charge the battery.

Because of the way li-ion batteries charge, there are a few key problems with using them in vehicles. first, the battery acts as a buffer to the charging system; i.e. when the engine is running, the battery acts as a buffer to stabilize power surges that normally happen when more power is used (say from turning on the headlights). the reason for this is because the alternator cannot react quickly enough to keep the voltage steady when more or less current is used. the battery acts to balance this by supplying additional current when needed; without it, the battery voltage would swing wildly from 9-15 volts for 1-2 seconds when you turn on the headlights, change the blower setting, or hit the defroster. since li-ion batteries are disconnected during charge, this buffer is lost.

this is not to say that li-ion batteries cannot be used in vehicles; in fact many hybrids do use them; the way this is done is to incorporate a sophisticated charging system and an alternator that has a special voltage regulator that integrates with the charging circuit. In principal the charging system is just a very high power DC-DC converter and voltage regulator. The alternator is electrically seperated from the vehicle circuits via this regulator, which takes the output from the alternator and up or downconverts it to regulated 13.5 volts that runs the vehicle electronics. a seperate circuit then uses the 13.5 volts to properly charge the battery when needed. In this system, the battery is actually rarely used at all. its main purpose is to supply power to start the engine but additionally, it is automatically switched in to provide additional power for the vehicle if the vehicle load exceeds the alternator supply.

these systems tend to be quite complex and expensive and that is why we do not see them. additionally, this is why the enax web site has lots of warnings about not letting the battery go dead and possibly using it in conjunction with a standard lead-acid battery (whats the point?). of course this does not mean that you cant just pop a li-ion in place of a normal battery but you certainly would not get anything close to reliable performance out of it: at best it would not last the winter, and at worst, the quick charging will start a small inferno in the trunk of the car.

the only legitimate use that i have seen for this type of battery is in track-only vehicles that do not run at night; since they really only need to supply the engine electronics at ~5 amp/hrs, the vehicle is literally stripped of the entire charging system, including alternator. a seperate start battery used to start the vehicle and the battery is used only for the duration of the race. it is then plugged into a proper charger to recharge for the next race.

if you want lightweight, i would stick with the odessy or similar dry/sealed wet cell that can handle quick charging.

[rob13572468]

one more thing to note on this issue; li-ion cells that use cells in series (which are anything above 1.25 volts) all need a undervoltage cutoff. this is to prevent a problem called reverse charging which happens when the battery becomes discharged. what besically happens is that all the cells in the pack are slightly different so when the battery is discharged, the first cell that falls below 1.25 volts starts to be charged by the remaining cells but in reverse. this causes catostrophic damage to that cell; plating on the cell anode, which in turn makes that cell even weaker.

The problem is that the when auto manufacturers were testing li-ion batteries in vehicles, they had problems with the starter tripping the cutoff if the battery was even minimally depleted. the current hybrids solve this using an electronic system to protect the battery but disable the cutoff during starting...

[qball]

Info was about their initial testing on the prototype battery. What you read is 19 months old. You must have missed the dates. Why don't you let us handle this since we are the ones promoting them? Thank you for your work but we don't need your help at the moment. By the way why are you so negative? If you are not sure, like you have stated, then we sure would appreciate you contacting us first, like we asked at the end of our post.

KMS, I can't figure out his post was really that "negative" as you stated or if you are pissed that he exposed your big secret and posted the information he found on this thread. It didn't appear to me that he wasn't trying to horde in your battery business, but rather posting what he discovered on the net. I have tried to introduce some new technology in the Porsche market. Often times, issues are overlooked and sometimes two heads are better than one.

Google... it's an amazing research tool.

Also...

These batteries are a newly redesigned Li-ion Battery especially made to use on the automobiles. Also they have a unique cell design that eliminated previous problems associated with a large scale Li-Ion design.

Hopefully, this means that the issues posted by rob13572468 have been addressed

[KMS Elise]

Let the games begin. Did we mention this is NEWLY REDESIGNED? The Enax knew about all those problems you have mentioned. Why don't we give the new (old) technology a chance before you start criticizing them to death. We're still living in the good ol' USA aren't we?

[KMS Elise]

qball,

What big secret? Just like you said the internet is a great research tool. Anybody can look it up. What we wanted to point out was that the info. Chris H. posted was based on the info. from Sept. 2003. Technology can improve somewhat (conservatively) in 19 months.