Hass Turbo Experience Log

[scottyb]

Well I dropped off my Elise at Hass Turbo yesterday with the Help of Stan. Here’s what Jay is going to do:

Hass Turbo for the Elise
Black coating on Intercooler
Flat Black coating on 3”intake tube to engine
Boost switch to flip between two different psi’s mounted on steering column shroud
Placement of the secondary ECU (EManage) above my Odyssey P680 Battery so that the stock Battery cover will hide/protect it
Placement of the aquamist pump in the engine bay
Placement of the Windshield washer fluid bottle in the boot
Powder coat rear diffuser
Placement of 3 gauges to be determined
1) Boost
2) Oil Temp
3) Aquamist Gauge
Dyno before and after
Dyno Tune Turbo system

I will try to keep a running log of my experience here so others can observe and make comments.

[aztec1382]

missing a few things

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by GHOSTRIDER

What happened to $5995?

He was charged tax accidentally and is being refunded. He also orderd a dual stage boost controller and 2 day shipping from Connecticut to California with a 100lb large package!

For the record, the spark plugs were forgotten as the kit was requested "express" and we rushed to get it out the door. Never again - I'd rather lose the sale then compromise quality. Honest. We also had the dual stage boost controller drop shipped from our supplier (Again in the name of "hurry up") but they dropped the ball and it never showed so I am overnighting a unit to him at my cost.

aztec1382: Please slow down with this project. I know you are anxious to get it up and running for the Sunday canyon run, but it's not worth blowing up your car in a rush.

I'll help you get it installed the best I can, just please ask a question before saying "we gave you the wrong product" as we straightened out the cat/exhaust issue on the phone in 5 minutes but someone reading this thread might think otherwise. You'll get it in, and it will run fine as long as you don't rush the process.

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by turbo2nr

Dr. B. or Jay. What turbo are you using for the basic kit? Any changes other than wastegate porting?

Thanks,
Scott

see http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17741

[22xy]

[quote=turbo2nr]
That plastic intake does not look very boost friendly. It there an aluminum one from another car we could use? Do I see a foam gasket sealing the two pieces? That looks like the result of a Nitrous accident, right?
[quote]

That was an Hass turbo install from one of the Spyder guys. It was installed by the individual, not by Hass. That's a 1zz, while your (our) engine is the 2zz with an aluminum intake manifold. That will not happen.

[Sky-King]

Hello all

I thought I would add something about my Hass Turbo install experience.

When I contacted Jay it was to help him create a turbo kit for the Lotus Elise, and that was about it. Well after a few weeks I began to feel more and more comfortable with Jay, so I had him install a front splitter, carbon fiber side scoops, a b&m short throw shifter, titanium lap belt harness holder and 5 point harness system. I have also had him design some custom pieces for the car as well. I purchased a LSD and a heavy duty clutch for the car and I have opted to have Don at European install those for me when I get the car back in the next week or so. My experience with Jay has been outstanding, and I would have had my car back about 3 month ago if I had not kept adding to the items I wanted installed and then the horrible weather that prevented the 500 mile break in that I insisted Jay personally perform on my car. It will be getting the final Dyno work competed Tuesday and then I will have the car picked up on Friday, it should be to me the following Friday. I will then make a post to schedule a meeting place for anyone in the Los Angeles area that wants to come see the car

Sky-King

[scottyb]

I contacted Hass Turbo today to see if they made it to the Dyno. I think I spoke with Jay’s wife. She told me that they could not make it to the Dyno because of all the snow and ice on the roads. So we are scheduled for Tuesday at the Dyno probably right before or after Sky’s Elise.

[scottyb]

Update:

The weather here in CT absolutely sucks!!!! The roads are an icy mess and we are expecting another storm tonight. So Jay still can’t get the cars to the Dyno. Everything on my car is postponed until we can get a base line Dyno which should hopefully happen sometime this week.

Also, I asked about needing to up my alternator since my Amplifiers draw quite a bit of current & the two fans on the intercooler have 30 Amp fuses on them. Jay doesn’t think there’s a need up upgrade the alternator.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by turbo2nr

Scott, I read all that. It did not exactly say whay model. I'll take a guess.

So that is a http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...S_739548_1.htmGT2860RS - 739548-1? Ballbearing, the larger "S"cover for higher flow.

I'm guessing you guys went with the smaller turbine housing, .63 A/R , since the engine is on the smaller side. I would have. Looks like a perfect match.

No no, not the .63 A/R. In the T2 housing it's too small for the NS111 turbine wheel which is the sweetheart of the 2860RS and up. In a mid or large frame turbo, the .63 (I.E. The old school T3 turbine housings) is much larger. Best way to reference these items is too look at the turbine flow maps on the website. That gives you an idea of overall exhaust flow and you will see the .86 and NS111 wheel is around the same as a .63 ar in the GT30 series which is a modern day version of the old school T3/T4 hybrid for the most part.

Garrett has done a million combinations these days based on all the hack it up mix and match "turbo houses" creating all the hybrids and such - Garrett decided to make their own hybrids to minimize the bastardization of their original designs as much as they could.

The GT28RS used to be had only one way. As the 739548-1 comes and with a .86 housing. That is what we are using. The original Garrett design. You can upgrade to the GT2871R models as well and they will swap out directly for the GT28RS. That small frame turbo maxed out will be able to support about 450crank or 400whp in the form of the turbo 743347-2 so there are plenty of upgrades in the small frame turbos to cover the run we would want in the Elise. Going to the medium frame turbos will do nothing but add expense and increase weight for this application.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by scottyb

Update:

The weather here in CT absolutely sucks!!!! The roads are an icy mess and we are expecting another storm tonight. So Jay still can’t get the cars to the Dyno. Everything on my car is postponed until we can get a base line Dyno which should hopefully happen sometime this week.

Also, I asked about needing to up my alternator since my Amplifiers draw quite a bit of current & the two fans on the intercooler have 30 Amp fuses on them. Jay doesn’t think there’s a need up upgrade the alternator.

Scotty, Keely told me you called. (She's a real sweetheart so be nice! LOL )

The weather does indeed "suck". I'm looking at a couple inches of icey slushy, salty, muddy CRAP in our parking lot and roads. What was supposed to be a rainstorm with a *chance* we would get some wet snow at the end turned into rain turning into freezing rain, followed by sleet and then about 3-4 inches of snow. So we have this multilayered slop still hanging around. (Did I mention it was *2* degrees Monday morning? )

As for Skykings dyno runs - great news on the tuning front, I was able to revise the tune and gain about 20 hp and 15 ft lbs in the midrange and smoothout a lot of the "dip" you get before the big cam comes on.

The problem we had is the dyno calibration was off for final numbers. The back to back runs were accurate and everything was working fine, it's just the final number was lower than it should have been. (They dyno uses a "base reference" and calculates from there so if the reference is off the number is either inflated or deflated) Unless you believe that a 2ZZGE with 8lbs of boost makes 174 hp to the wheels.

It was a good day for tuning, but a bad one for bragging rights. LOL

I'm trying to make another appointment for Skykings car but I fear his kindness is wearing thin and he wants his car. So, we may have to use another example for final numbers.

To give you an idea how it's running here's a little tease.

http://www.hassturbo.com/video/lotus/elise-hass-01.mpg

If you pay attention you will see the car sideways in 1st and kick out in 2nd as well after the shift.
Not bad for 6 lbs of boost through a cat with a 2.5 inch exhaust you can hear blowing air like a vacuum cleaner! Nice clean power as well.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by xcusemi

Jay:

Seeing your video makes me want my car back even more. You are killing me =)


Chai

Just waiting for the turbo delivery - should be here end of week...of course they said that last week too!

Seriously though, soon as it comes in we can wrap it up and you will be finished. You can come get it now if you want - you'll just have to put the snow tires and chains on.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by avantephoto

Can someone tell me how much of the exhaust pictured in the original thread comes with the kit? I've left a couple of a messages and have yet to hear back. It seems like this may be the better way to get some answers.

- Hansen

Really? Strange, Keely has been on the phones for the past two days non stop? No messages in the VM either? Did you call us or Arqray? Sorry about that either way.

If you are talking about the red Elise, that is not our piece. It's an Arqray single exit in Titanium. SkyKing had it installed before we received the car. If you are talking about the piece we put on the yellow Elise we have not officially released it and are not 100% settled on the final configuration. If the weather cooperates we will be able to do some more testing regarding noise and resonance to finalize the details. Stay tuned.

[scottyb]

Jay,

How important do you think the Before Dyno is? The only Mod I have to my system is the Arquay SS Dual Tip. I’m assuming that it really shouldn’t add any more Hp to the Elise. What does everyone else think?

ScottyB

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by avantephoto

Wait a sec... so what am I getting with the order I've already placed? That's what my shop and I are trying to figure out.

Sorry Scott for hijacking your thread. Maybe I should repost this in the Hass turbo thread...

I'm really confused myself. LOL

What you will get is a downpipe from the turbo that connects to the existing exhaust just before the cat. You can run any exhaust you like that is designed for the Elise with or without cat. What I was referring to is the exhaust we put on 1FastMX5's car which we might release as a production piece when finished.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by scottyb

Jay,

How important do you think the Before Dyno is? The only Mod I have to my system is the Arquay SS Dual Tip. I’m assuming that it really shouldn’t add any more Hp to the Elise. What does everyone else think?

ScottyB

Well, I have another with a stage-II exhaust going for a "before" more for curiosity sake which should be within a couple hp of your car this way it won't hold your project up at the same time. I don't think it's very much needed aside from the curiosity standpoint. The final number is all that matters to me and production cars should be within a handful of each other regarding hp no matter what.

We can talk about it more tomorrow if you want to stop by, if you change your mind just let me know.

[scottyb]

Jay,

What the hell, lets just skip the before Dyno. We’re going to have another storm tomorrow anyways. The end result is more important. Hopefully I’ll be able to stop by tomorrow afternoon. It all depends on the weather. So let’s rip her apart and get to it!

ScottyB

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by scottyb

Jay,

What the hell, lets just skip the before Dyno. We’re going to have another storm tomorrow anyways. The end result is more important. Hopefully I’ll be able to stop by tomorrow afternoon. It all depends on the weather. So let’s rip her apart and get to it!

ScottyB

Ask and ye shall receive. We're on it like like a diaper.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by MyElise

Was that the fuel cutoff in 3rd or did you just lift?

I lifted after fuel cut hit.

The car is moving out incredibly well for only 6psi of boost which makes my heart happy. The more power that can be had with less boost and not giving the car an on the edge tune the better in my book.

Here is a comparison of 1FastMX5's car at 12-13psi and no cat with his old turbo set up (Same turbo, and our fuel system but other items that IMHO hurt power.) vs SkyKings car with our turbo kit at 6psi. Based on shift points and the fact that the yellow car had a rolling start I'd say SkyKings car is pulling harder and cleaner with half the boost.

http://www.hassturbo.com/video/lotus/yellow-vs-red.mpg

Don't worry Anthony, you're next.

avantephoto: No problem, glad things are clear now.

[JayHass]

Originally Posted by Stan

Ahhh the joys of a decent datalogger...your dyno in a little box. Do your correction factors and the numbers jive with chassis dynos just fine...

A nice thing about them as far as turbo cars go is that the airflow over the car is...the actual airflow that matters. So cooling issues, intercooler factors, and on and on are 100% real world.

I agree with you Stan, there is merit to data loggers for sure and I do in fact use them as additional data.

The one thing the dyno does offer is the ability to fine tune and steady state load the car at various rpm and tp points to target problem areas.

Basically, picture holding the car at 4500rpm, 30% throttle with say a 25% load, while watching one laptop monitoring the stock ECU for fuel trims and timing advance while the second laptop has the Emanage software open with all the maps out with a map trace going on along with the superflow dyno display outside the window with a/f being shown, oil temp, boost pressure, (And just about any variable we wish to monitor) etc

Now take that one sample rpm and load and multiply that into various points along the way. That really allows us to not focus on hitting a tree while we are trying to monitor these things on the street.

On the street, we pretty much log and then review afterwards to be sure all lines up accordingly.

The dyno we use is a Superflow unit housed in a location that has a 36,000cfm 3 foot diameter "wind pipe" that pretty much buffets the car like it's on the highway and will cool a 200* car down below the digital coolant display in a couple minutes if you shut the car off and leave it on.

As the owner says "if it aint bolted down, it's out the door once that fan starts". LOL

As for comparison and correction factors - I'm very very suspect of correction factors as most are centered on naturally aspirated cars and can't take "created atmosphere" and all the variables that go along with it into account in a forced induction vehicle. I normally watch the correction factor and if it's anything outside of a .9 or 1.1 max, I use uncorrected numbers and report the conditions at the time of the test.

The correction factor I was talking about in this particular instance was the *calibration* of the dyno and not a correction. Basically it takes a real world twisting force or torque and then uses a reference arm to calibrate. I guess the best way *I* can explain it is like taking a bathroom scale and adjusting it minus 10lbs. It says you are lighter even though you know better but you can still diet and see that you lost 5 lbs - it would just be off relatively speaking from the true weight. That was the situation here. The dyno was and always is incredibly consistent from run to run.

Hope that explains things better.

Oh and for reference we use the Nology Laptop Dyno for street testing and have found it within 5hp of the dyno 99% of the time.

[scottyb]

Well I stopped by Hass Turbo today and saw my car in pieces. I snapped a couple of pictures too.

Anyways we decided to go with an Acusump rather than the Morosso oil pan. It appears that you can only get the pan through Monkey Wrench which could be problematic. Also, Jay is going to weld in a baffle in the stock pan.

I gave Jay my old HVAC surround to see if he could fabricate one out of Brushed Aluminum so that 3 gauges could sit inside it next to the HVAC on the shelf. I think it will look incredible, the only down side is you loose some of the shelf. We decided to go with the following gauges:1)Boost 2)Oil Pressure 3)Aquamist Guage. If it comes out as well as we suspect, he may offer the gauge housing as a product for sale. Hopefully I get some credit for the idea and maybe a kick back.

Jay is going to fabricate a shelf on top of my Odyssey Battery to house the Greddy Emanage unit so that it will fit completely hidden under the stock battery cover.

Also, there may be a problem with working with my Arquay Sport CAT but we will see.

My stock air box with filter was almost completely clogged, I suggest you guys check that every 3000 miles. Mine was just changed 3 months ago at HRM.