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Old 01-28-2013, 07:55 PM   #201 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Elige View Post
I see a lot of 599 from the side profile, especially around the roofline.


I actually see a LOT of 599 in it. That being said, I don't like the 599.

Frankly, I think it's the least good looking Ferrari since the Mondial.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:00 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Mostly what Im reading is a rehash of what I read when the last Corvette came out. Only now its different people because most of them currently didnt have an Elise back then.
Basically what I notice is that the folks who talked $hit about Corvettes, any iteration, will continue to do so no matter what. They believe they are being vogue or something. No big deal, they would never buy a Corvette anyway, too common, not enough of a status symbol, and some its just not their cup of tea. Maybe some cant afford one anyway, whatever the reason is so be it.
That said I believe once these start hitting the streets they will prove to be both aesthetically pleasing to most folks in that market segment, and it will prove to be a very competent car especially at its price point.
I believe cars that push the genre forward and stretch the envelope is good for the industry no matter whose sportscar you like.
Maybe Im too much of a car guy, I dont know.
You're thinking too much.

I just don't find it to be a particularly attractive car - just like I don't fancy the 599 or the GTR.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:02 PM   #203 (permalink)
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You do you know I am not mad at the banks and other companies as well? The only difference is that they did not shaft their shareholders the same way and then keep on putting out lie after lie about how they have paid back the debt when they have not even got half of it paid.

I actually hear people who bought that hook line and sinker about how fast GM bounced back because big government bailouts work and they paid everything back and is making money. Yeah... right... if that is the definition then let me get some government money and pay it back the same way.
Youre right about 1 thing, the banks certainly didnt shaft their shareholders, just everybody else.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:06 PM   #204 (permalink)
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You're thinking too much.

I just don't find it to be a particularly attractive car - just like I don't fancy the 599 or the GTR.
No, Ive just been around here longer than you, just not as many posts. (In the last 2 years)
Btw, why do you feel a need to personalize what I said?

Im not shy, if I wanted to personalize or direct it at YOU, I would say so.
Heck, I could call ya up and talk all about it with ya.

You do fit the part of never liking anything corvette (at least not in the last 45 years or so) and would look hypocritical if you did a 360 now. I mean look at all your Corvette rants and rants against hypocrites....
You HAD to hate this car.
NOW it was directed to you.
Maybe you fall into the category of it just not being your cup of tea, but if I was a gambling man Id have to go with my first guess.
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It is admitted by all that he was much addicted to women, as well as very expensive in his intrigues with them, and that he debauched many ladies of the highest quality; among whom were Posthumia, the wife of Servius Sulpicius; and Lollia, the wife of Aulus Gabinius.

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Old 01-28-2013, 08:16 PM   #205 (permalink)
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Its not right that the banks did it either. However, you think GM worker families are the only ones that could have been affected by layoffs? Why are their families worth bailing out but those that worked at the millions of other companies that fell on hard times not be saved? Why should Detriot be saved? Its a unionized cesspool of bloatedness that SHOULD be bulldozed and redone.

Where were all the bleeding hearts when Kodakers and Enron(for example) employees got the shaft? Why didnt THEY get bailed out too? Not big enough? Well, then, just make every large company publicly owned by default so we all share the profits? No - they get the profit, we get the bloated union bill and subsequent bailout tab. Just freegin great.

Of course, the bail out was really for the UAW and the voting base they bring to the table. Oh and the campaign contributions. GM could have easily just went straight Chapter 11, torn up those obnoxious, stuck-in-the-1950's union deals and started over with regular employees and NO unions. Like Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and many other companies who seem to have happy employees without union bloat. Just a bunch of BS.



You bring up a great point about additional peple who got the shaft in this disgusting deal. Taxpayers & shareholders got the meat-shaft. Too bad for them.
Well Im not a bleeding heart and I think anyone who knows me would attest to that.
Gm has so many ancillary companies and families living under their umbrella that it goes way beyond GM itself, but no one is here for an economics lesson. Boooooring. Plus I get paid for that. I do agree that BK would have nullified their strangling union contracts but were past that now.
Anyway, still not sure why there isnt the same passion for blood against the banks, but I guess SOMEONE has to run the country it might as well be them.
Bulldoze and level detroit? Wow. Thats a lot of anger.
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It is admitted by all that he was much addicted to women, as well as very expensive in his intrigues with them, and that he debauched many ladies of the highest quality; among whom were Posthumia, the wife of Servius Sulpicius; and Lollia, the wife of Aulus Gabinius.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:20 PM   #206 (permalink)
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I actually see a LOT of 599 in it. That being said, I don't like the 599.

Frankly, I think it's the least good looking Ferrari since the Mondial.
Well then buy the other 400k dollar car. lol.

Your comparison alludes to a design trend among many high powered cars that is dictated by the wind tunnel. Look at the Viper's front end too, and many other cars. Theyre looking similar because they need those aerodynamics to achieve some of their performance numbers. At higher speeds it becomes a game of aero as much as HP.
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It is admitted by all that he was much addicted to women, as well as very expensive in his intrigues with them, and that he debauched many ladies of the highest quality; among whom were Posthumia, the wife of Servius Sulpicius; and Lollia, the wife of Aulus Gabinius.
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Old 01-28-2013, 08:22 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Seems one of the 'cons' about this car is that it's not exclusive and all over the place.... For me, it'll be really rare in Taiwan with probably only ten in the whole country making it as rare as the Evora... Looks interesting to me but with only 2 seats, it's out of the question for me.

I kinda like it, even the rear. The Ferrari F12's rear is more ugly in my opinion ... Corvette's much better.


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Old 01-28-2013, 09:47 PM   #208 (permalink)
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No, Ive just been around here longer than you, just not as many posts. (In the last 2 years)
Btw, why do you feel a need to personalize what I said?

Im not shy, if I wanted to personalize or direct it at YOU, I would say so.
Heck, I could call ya up and talk all about it with ya.

You do fit the part of never liking anything corvette (at least not in the last 45 years or so) and would look hypocritical if you did a 360 now. I mean look at all your Corvette rants and rants against hypocrites....
You HAD to hate this car.
NOW it was directed to you.
Maybe you fall into the category of it just not being your cup of tea, but if I was a gambling man Id have to go with my first guess.
BTW, it's a 180, not a 360, which would land you in the same direction as you started.

LOTUSWN: You would dare drive a big wide honkin' American V8 fiberglass body car in Taipei with all the narrow streets and potholes and wet weather and locals who don't give a rip about nice cars?
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:07 AM   #209 (permalink)
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LOTUSWN: You would dare drive a big wide honkin' American V8 fiberglass body car in Taipei with all the narrow streets and potholes...
I spend quite a bit of time in Taiwan and China, and most (not all) of the roads have less potholes than here in the US, especially LA.

Then again there's the occasional road where they've just decided to remove the top surface or something.

[I have no argument with the rest of what you wrote though.]


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Old 01-29-2013, 05:04 AM   #210 (permalink)
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Well Im not a bleeding heart and I think anyone who knows me would attest to that.
Gm has so many ancillary companies and families living under their umbrella that it goes way beyond GM itself, but no one is here for an economics lesson. Boooooring. Plus I get paid for that. I do agree that BK would have nullified their strangling union contracts but were past that now.
Anyway, still not sure why there isnt the same passion for blood against the banks, but I guess SOMEONE has to run the country it might as well be them.
Bulldoze and level detroit? Wow. Thats a lot of anger.
I dont mean bulldoze literally - but that city could use a complete redo. A makeover. A fresh start thats free from bloated beaurocracy and nonsense.

I understand the ancillary argument too - many parts suppliers, auto parts stores, etc, etc would have felt the pinch. However, when any business or brand shuts down, the others pick up the slack. All those GM drivers still need cars and need to drive. They just buy Fords or Toyotas now. Then, parts suppliers have to change inventory and some tooling so they can make more parts for the cars that are around. Sure, there'd be some initial pain but the situation was FAR from as dire as union leadership made it out to be. They acted like the Earth would stop rotating if GM went udner. Not even close to true at all. And, of course, the displaced workers could have landed jobs ffor other car companies which many would have. Or, maybe they need to change jobs? Welcome to the real world. Everyone else has had to do it at some point. Why should their jobs be deemed "precious" and not other folks?

Heck, by now, I have a feeling that the dust would have setteled and GM could have been a leaner, meaner company with fewer brands, no union bloat, and probably better cars. Whatever jobs were lost would have been mostly filled since the other car companies would have needed to hire due to increased demand. Thats how the economy works. Thats free markets. Thats capitalism. Thats what is suppopsed to happen. But, No. Instaed, a private company that made trillions for years and years which was horribly mismanaged and became a golden-laced jobs factory for unskilled labor was bailed out. When it came time to pay the piper.... they ran to the feds in tears. Bunch of crap.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:58 AM   #211 (permalink)
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I spend quite a bit of time in Taiwan and China, and most (not all) of the roads have less potholes than here in the US, especially LA.

Then again there's the occasional road where they've just decided to remove the top surface or something.

[I have no argument with the rest of what you wrote though.]
The nice roads are nicer than here. The bad roads are just bad. Also, unless you only spend time in the main downtown metropolitan areas, where you can't really drive thanks to the traffic, any suburban area with the less new developments where the real people live would be narrow streets and half paved parking lots with really bad entry/exit curbs that would eat up a low slung fiberglass car in days. I've thought about this.

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I dont mean bulldoze literally - but that city could use a complete redo. A makeover. A fresh start thats free from bloated beaurocracy and nonsense.

I understand the ancillary argument too - many parts suppliers, auto parts stores, etc, etc would have felt the pinch. However, when any business or brand shuts down, the others pick up the slack. All those GM drivers still need cars and need to drive. They just buy Fords or Toyotas now. Then, parts suppliers have to change inventory and some tooling so they can make more parts for the cars that are around. Sure, there'd be some initial pain but the situation was FAR from as dire as union leadership made it out to be. They acted like the Earth would stop rotating if GM went udner. Not even close to true at all. And, of course, the displaced workers could have landed jobs ffor other car companies which many would have. Or, maybe they need to change jobs? Welcome to the real world. Everyone else has had to do it at some point. Why should their jobs be deemed "precious" and not other folks?

Heck, by now, I have a feeling that the dust would have setteled and GM could have been a leaner, meaner company with fewer brands, no union bloat, and probably better cars. Whatever jobs were lost would have been mostly filled since the other car companies would have needed to hire due to increased demand. Thats how the economy works. Thats free markets. Thats capitalism. Thats what is suppopsed to happen. But, No. Instaed, a private company that made trillions for years and years which was horribly mismanaged and became a golden-laced jobs factory for unskilled labor was bailed out. When it came time to pay the piper.... they ran to the feds in tears. Bunch of crap.
That's exactly it. It should have gone through the same cycle as any other failed business that had to either go under or reorg, and have other companies which would be able to capitalize on the market vacuum do their thing in the meantime. Who knows what exciting smaller companies would have emerged or what technologies would come out from the free capital which was not tied up by GM?

But no, it was made out that America can't live without GM. Right, there was an America before GM, there will be one after GM. I like some of their cars but you know what, I will live fine without a GM product, have been for quite some time now.
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Old 01-29-2013, 09:37 AM   #212 (permalink)
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Not to bring this up again, but GM was the funding source for the series 2 Elise/Exige and it's new factory before the bail out...not too mention there are a few GM parts in our S2 cars. Plus they saved the brand with owning Lotus in the late 80's and 90's, when the Esprit really developed.

Seriously if you want to be mad at bailouts, let's look at the foreign aid with no roi.

Also Ford still owes between $5.9-8.8 billion from their government loans during the same timeframe- google it.

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Old 01-29-2013, 11:36 AM   #213 (permalink)
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Why do discussions of GM products have to devolve into the GM hate threads? And with a lot of misinformation, too - for example GM did declare bankruptcy in a prepackaged plan financed by the federal government; GM could have rejected union and supplier contracts, but did not do so on a wholesale basis because the federal government wanted it that way. And the good people of GM who design, engineer and test cars deserve to be hated over all of that?

If you can't discuss the merits of the vehicle itself, go start another thread about how you hate GM and why.

I like the car, am glad GM departed from the retro trend of the past 10 or so years, and think the new C7 Corvette will sell well.
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Old 01-29-2013, 05:53 PM   #214 (permalink)
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Not to bring this up again, but GM was the funding source for the series 2 Elise/Exige and it's new factory before the bail out...not too mention there are a few GM parts in our S2 cars. Plus they saved the brand with owning Lotus in the late 80's and 90's, when the Esprit really developed.

Seriously if you want to be mad at bailouts, let's look at the foreign aid with no roi.

Also Ford still owes between $5.9-8.8 billion from their government loans during the same timeframe- google it.
When GM did their deal with Lotus, it was free market. They can do whatever they want with their own private money. That doesn't excuse the bad things later. Otherwise, we can all save up karma for later.

As for foreign aid, I hate that too. Also hate funding 1/5 of the UN budget. Hate having to contribute to the IMF.

Ford may owe money from loans but it wasn't a bailout and the Government sure ain't lying about how Ford paid them all back from another bogus account.

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Why do discussions of GM products have to devolve into the GM hate threads? And with a lot of misinformation, too - for example GM did declare bankruptcy in a prepackaged plan financed by the federal government; GM could have rejected union and supplier contracts, but did not do so on a wholesale basis because the federal government wanted it that way. And the good people of GM who design, engineer and test cars deserve to be hated over all of that?

If you can't discuss the merits of the vehicle itself, go start another thread about how you hate GM and why.

I like the car, am glad GM departed from the retro trend of the past 10 or so years, and think the new C7 Corvette will sell well.
Every single employee may not have a part in the overall decision, of course not, but they work for the entity which did these things. Do I hate the individual employee? No, but I hate the company and I hate the unions, and that is what is at stake, not an individual working in any department.

The Corvette will always sell well, no doubt about it. Even the anemic L82 sold, right? This one will still sell to the legions of fanboys and others who want a car that throws out world class numbers at a relatively budget price. That formula works as it should.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:23 PM   #215 (permalink)
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BTW, it's a 180, not a 360, which would land you in the same direction as you started.

LOTUSWN: You would dare drive a big wide honkin' American V8 fiberglass body car in Taipei with all the narrow streets and potholes and wet weather and locals who don't give a rip about nice cars?
Well, not much different than driving a Lotus fiberglass body car... lol

Weatherwise, it's not that bad -- after all, it's a subtropical island. Potholes, probably as many or even less than most urban areas in the US.

And locals who don't care about nice cars? You gotta be kidding! Every other car is a BMW, Benz, and I usually see a few Ferraris/Lambos to and from work every day....

Nice car it is but I'll reserve final judgement until I actually get to drive one in LA some time.

When's it due out?
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:28 PM   #216 (permalink)
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Well, not much different than driving a Lotus fiberglass body car... lol

Weatherwise, it's not that bad -- after all, it's a subtropical island. Potholes, probably as many or even less than most urban areas in the US.

And locals who don't care about nice cars? You gotta be kidding! Every other car is a BMW, Benz, and I usually see a few Ferraris/Lambos to and from work every day....

Nice car it is but I'll reserve final judgement until I actually get to drive one in LA some time.

When's it due out?
At least the Lotus is smaller and more manueverable in the tight streets.

The weather is okay when it's okay but when monsoon season hits and it's cold, I would not want to be in a car with big wide tires that has a tendency to spin tires when cold or wet.

As for the locals, yes, there are the few car fans who can afford it, and then you got the masses of the ah mah and lao yeh who are happy taking the bus or driving the old scooters around while they bang into your car everywhere.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:38 AM   #217 (permalink)
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L48 was the base engine, the L82 had the forged stuff and different cam. 195HP for the L48 in 1979. Of course the Ferrari 308GTB had 205HP (and much less torque), so it is all relative.

The tires on the new Vette are smaller than the older model due to the lower weight and, I would guess, fuel economy considerations.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:45 AM   #218 (permalink)
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Why do discussions of GM products have to devolve into the GM hate threads? And with a lot of misinformation, too - for example GM did declare bankruptcy in a prepackaged plan financed by the federal government; GM could have rejected union and supplier contracts, but did not do so on a wholesale basis because the federal government wanted it that way. And the good people of GM who design, engineer and test cars deserve to be hated over all of that?

If you can't discuss the merits of the vehicle itself, go start another thread about how you hate GM and why.

I like the car, am glad GM departed from the retro trend of the past 10 or so years, and think the new C7 Corvette will sell well.
Just the way it is. They shouldnt have been bailed out so its expected people are still torked about it. And, if they are gonna use our money, at least make a good looking car with it

The C7 will sell well. Dont all Vettes sell about 73 million copies or so each release?
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Old 01-30-2013, 11:15 AM   #219 (permalink)
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Why do discussions of GM products have to devolve into the GM hate threads? And with a lot of misinformation, too - for example GM did declare bankruptcy in a prepackaged plan financed by the federal government; GM could have rejected union and supplier contracts, but did not do so on a wholesale basis because the federal government wanted it that way. And the good people of GM who design, engineer and test cars deserve to be hated over all of that?

If you can't discuss the merits of the vehicle itself, go start another thread about how you hate GM and why.

I like the car, am glad GM departed from the retro trend of the past 10 or so years, and think the new C7 Corvette will sell well.
You have to go away now.
Your post makes too much sense.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:07 PM   #220 (permalink)
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Most car companies both foreign and us based have operated outside of the free marketplace at some point in their history. Subsidies and bailouts are the norm it seems. I read a really interesting article about it a few years ago which I cant seem to locate online. I dont have a strong opinion about the GM bailout, however. It was a nessicary evil acording to most of the buisness articles I have seen.
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