Challenger SRT8 beats Elise SC at VIR - LotusTalk

ericwgexige · 12-01-2008, 04:19 PM

The December issue of Car and Driver does a comparison of different cars at VIR, and unfortunately, the supercharged Elise gets beaten by, among other supposedly lesser track cars, the new Challenger SRT8. What a disappointment! A 4150lb 425hp car beating a 2050lb 220hp car? Since the Challenger weighs twice as much as the Elise, wouldn't that be like a 440hp Elise if it weighed as much as the Challenger?

charliex · 12-01-2008, 04:33 PM

they said the tyres were the let down.

Car and Driver starts about 2:20

ericwgexige · 12-01-2008, 04:36 PM

The tires couldn't have been any worse than the tires on some of the other cars.

charliex · 12-01-2008, 04:49 PM

well the sc car was 6 seconds slower than the na elise they had last year with diff tyres, thats what they're saying anyway.

Z-dculus · 12-01-2008, 05:32 PM

an american car winning hands down in a car and driver write up?????? i don't think thats ever happened before....

Bavarian Motorist · 12-01-2008, 06:00 PM

This has been discussed in great detail here...

C&D Lightning Lap: 22 cars; 4 categories. Setting: VIR. Elise SC featured!

C&D Lightning lap...

ivan1 · 12-01-2008, 06:09 PM

I thought it sounded familiar....

Bavarian Motorist · 12-01-2008, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivan1

I thought it sounded familiar....

Let's not get into it again!!!

worthless AD07 tires...

trompazo · 12-01-2008, 06:40 PM

I missed the other thread but I have extensively tracked an Exige S (ASP trim with Hoosier A6s), Elise on A048s, Corvette Z06 (Hoosier A6s, Penskes, and 590whp), Stock Gallardo on Hoosier R6s, Mercedes SLK55 AMG (hoosier A6s), an EVO X on stock rubber and no mods, and a Mini Cooper S JCW on Falken Azenis.

This has always been on a high horsepower track, which I believe VIR is as well.

Bottomline, IMO, is that the reason the Lotuses get such poor lap times is becuase of aerodynamic drag and a lack of power. The Cd is about 0.5 (can't remember the exact number of the top of my head) but it is horrible.

Out of any car I have ever driven the Exige S is the most fun, best handling, most controllable, best steering, most communicative car. But the lap times always suck. It FEELS fast, but lap times don't lie.

IMO, Lotus make really fun track cars, but unless you mod it to make an insane amount of power (350whp) it will not be that fast on high horsepower tracks.

But for autocross, it's a completely differnt story. It has the potential to be a killer car, but is also tricky to learn the limits.

Bavarian Motorist · 12-01-2008, 06:58 PM

Something was wrong with this test. The Lotus should lose to the higher end cars, but remember, an NA ELISE in 2006 lapped 6 seconds faster than this Elise SC. That's very curious. It could be the AD07 tires, or the lack of the sport pack (which is no one's fault, I guess).

Eliges stink in the straights and top end mostly due to lack of power.

thegit · 12-02-2008, 03:17 AM

Michigan really needs some good news and a some er, "help" in these tough economic times. Perhaps some assistance by the Comic Book Journos (who feeds them?) is in order.

m

dmh · 12-02-2008, 03:27 AM

I skipped to the part that mentioned the Lotus did a 3.16.6
Who were the test drivers?
I know the Full and North Courses quite well. What course did they run -- the Grand?

Darth G-F · 12-02-2008, 04:09 AM

Ok my Elise is now for sale. I bought it because I thought it was the fastest car on earth. Time to sell and buy that SRT8 instead!

American muscle ftw!!!

Darth G-F · 12-02-2008, 04:21 AM

The AD07 are not bad oem tires, they're pretty good in fact.

The problem is with the front tires. The 175 size front tires were designed to remove all trace of oversteer for less skilled drivers. The thing is, the Elise/Exige, like any other car, does most of its braking with the front brakes. With only 175 of contact patch, the braking power, especially on track is greatly diminished.

Then there this understeer designed into the base suspension/tires that definately hurt lap times.

I think 195 or 205 front AD07 would significantly improve the grip for both braking and turning.

But still, in base form, an ExigeS with base suspension/tires (if such an animal really exist) is not as fast as a real car with 425 of the finest american horses...

Jamolah · 12-02-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth G-F

The AD07 are not bad oem tires, they're pretty good in fact.

The problem is with the front tires. The 175 size front tires were designed to remove all trace of understeer for less skilled drivers. The thing is, the Elise/Exige, like any other car, does most of its braking with the front brakes. With only 175 of contact patch, the braking power, especially on track is greatly diminished.

Then there this understeer designed into the base suspension/tires that definately hurt lap times.

I think 195 or 205 front AD07 would significantly improve the grip for both braking and turning.

But still, in base form, an ExigeS with base suspension/tires (if such an animal really exist) is not as fast as a real car with 425 of the finest american horses...

I think you meant oversteer.

I have to agree with Darth G-F on this one. I don’t think it’s so much the tire as opposed to the tire size. 175 is pretty small.

And you can’t tell me the SRT8 would have good stock tires on it, anyway. So, the bad tire argument is out the door.

Maxster · 12-02-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth G-F

The problem is with the front tires. The 175 size front tires were designed to remove all trace of understeer for less skilled drivers.

You really mean Oversteer. Right?

CK_lotus · 12-02-2008, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxster

You really mean Oversteer. Right?

Yup, he did. This was, in fact, discussed in the TOP GEAR episode by Lotus' Chassis engineer, Gavin Kershaw.

YouTube - Lotus Elise - Top Gear

Lotus understeer/oversteer discussed elsewhere on this forum.

Top Gear - Clarkson driving the Elise

PhlypSide · 12-02-2008, 06:44 AM

And we care because? :P

.......it's still a Dodge at the end of the day. Perhaps the Challenger had a better driver?

evomind · 12-02-2008, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

And we care because? :P

.......it's still a Dodge at the end of the day. Perhaps the Challenger had a better driver?

probably not.
any track that takes some HP, the weaknesses of the elise/exige rear their heads. hell, ive been saying that for abt 3 years now. its a great car, its just not all that fast when it isnt braking and turning.
i understand how ppl coming from a miata/mr2 would think the car is a rocket...it is, comparatively so.

revel in the cars strengths, dont get caught up on its weaknesses.

PhlypSide · 12-02-2008, 08:41 AM

^^^ I soo agree. These cars are not magical race-winners. You've got to know the proper context and expect appropriate results.

Besides too many of us get caught up in this car beat that and blah blah blah.

WTF, very few, if any of us are being paid to win races, let alone compete in them, so take it easy! Just enjoy the car.

12-01-2008, 04:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
ericwgexige Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hatboro, PA Posts: 376 Images: 2	Challenger SRT8 beats Elise SC at VIR The December issue of Car and Driver does a comparison of different cars at VIR, and unfortunately, the supercharged Elise gets beaten by, among other supposedly lesser track cars, the new Challenger SRT8. What a disappointment! A 4150lb 425hp car beating a 2050lb 220hp car? Since the Challenger weighs twice as much as the Elise, wouldn't that be like a 440hp Elise if it weighed as much as the Challenger? __________________ '07 CO Exige S TrkPk/TourPk/TrkContrl/Star - Braille 13.1lb batt, 2bular 8x24, Green filter, desnorkle, Gotham, shifter mods, Moroso oil pan, Pagid RS 4-2, fettled '91 NSX Blk/Blk many suspension mods,headers,exhaust(SOLD) '01 Integra GSR Blk/Blk Comptech header, intake, & rear tie/sway bar '04 CBR 600 F4i Red/Blk '01 Honda Rebel 250 - 80mpg!

12-01-2008, 04:33 PM	#2 (permalink)
charliex OSX Black hat Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Las Vegas , NV Posts: 9,755	they said the tyres were the let down. Car and Driver starts about 2:20 __________________ Black Exige S - http://goth.am 265 Mule / Elan M100 ECU Tuning, http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39660 Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realise the pig is enjoying it.

12-01-2008, 04:36 PM	#3 (permalink)
ericwgexige Registered User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hatboro, PA Posts: 376 Images: 2	The tires couldn't have been any worse than the tires on some of the other cars. __________________ '07 CO Exige S TrkPk/TourPk/TrkContrl/Star - Braille 13.1lb batt, 2bular 8x24, Green filter, desnorkle, Gotham, shifter mods, Moroso oil pan, Pagid RS 4-2, fettled '91 NSX Blk/Blk many suspension mods,headers,exhaust(SOLD) '01 Integra GSR Blk/Blk Comptech header, intake, & rear tie/sway bar '04 CBR 600 F4i Red/Blk '01 Honda Rebel 250 - 80mpg!

12-01-2008, 04:49 PM	#4 (permalink)
charliex OSX Black hat Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Las Vegas , NV Posts: 9,755	well the sc car was 6 seconds slower than the na elise they had last year with diff tyres, thats what they're saying anyway. __________________ Black Exige S - http://goth.am 265 Mule / Elan M100 ECU Tuning, http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39660 Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while, you realise the pig is enjoying it.

12-01-2008, 05:32 PM	#5 (permalink)
Z-dculus Derriere Extraordinaire Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: US OF A! Posts: 2,259	an american car winning hands down in a car and driver write up?????? i don't think thats ever happened before.... __________________ 2006 KG-Sport Pack, LSD, TC, SS, Multivex, Lotus Stage II/powercoated diffuser, CF Zoom Rear View, Sector LidBone, Darth Holder (thanks Kestrel!), Sector 4Tress Harness Bar/CRD Mount, couple exige trim pieces 2004 Nissan 350z - Super Black-too many mods to list-SOLD to my brother 1978 Chevrolet Caprice Classic -(daily driver) *Seasoned veteran member of the KG Mafia

12-01-2008, 06:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bavarian Motorist Live to Drive Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NYC/Westchester, NY Posts: 10,366	This has been discussed in great detail here... C&D Lightning Lap: 22 cars; 4 categories. Setting: VIR. Elise SC featured! C&D Lightning lap... __________________ If you can't say something nice, it'd better be funny.

12-01-2008, 06:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
ivan1 Land of the Lotus Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Bedford, NY Posts: 5,900	I thought it sounded familiar.... __________________ 2008 Elise SC Ardent Red - Touring, Sport, Starshield Previous car - 2005 Elise Saffron Yellow (totaled in flood- the original underwater elise)

12-01-2008, 06:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
trompazo Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Posts: 466	I missed the other thread but I have extensively tracked an Exige S (ASP trim with Hoosier A6s), Elise on A048s, Corvette Z06 (Hoosier A6s, Penskes, and 590whp), Stock Gallardo on Hoosier R6s, Mercedes SLK55 AMG (hoosier A6s), an EVO X on stock rubber and no mods, and a Mini Cooper S JCW on Falken Azenis. This has always been on a high horsepower track, which I believe VIR is as well. Bottomline, IMO, is that the reason the Lotuses get such poor lap times is becuase of aerodynamic drag and a lack of power. The Cd is about 0.5 (can't remember the exact number of the top of my head) but it is horrible. Out of any car I have ever driven the Exige S is the most fun, best handling, most controllable, best steering, most communicative car. But the lap times always suck. It FEELS fast, but lap times don't lie. IMO, Lotus make really fun track cars, but unless you mod it to make an insane amount of power (350whp) it will not be that fast on high horsepower tracks. But for autocross, it's a completely differnt story. It has the potential to be a killer car, but is also tricky to learn the limits. __________________ 2007 Exige S Krypton Green: 2ubular/FF RaceHeader/Penskes/Hypercoils/H20 injection 2006 Corvette Z06: Road Course 2007 Porsche 997 TT: Daily 2004 STi: project car #2 1994 Supra Turbo: project car #1

12-01-2008, 06:58 PM	#10 (permalink)
Bavarian Motorist Live to Drive Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NYC/Westchester, NY Posts: 10,366	Something was wrong with this test. The Lotus should lose to the higher end cars, but remember, an NA ELISE in 2006 lapped 6 seconds faster than this Elise SC. That's very curious. It could be the AD07 tires, or the lack of the sport pack (which is no one's fault, I guess). Eliges stink in the straights and top end mostly due to lack of power. __________________ If you can't say something nice, it'd better be funny.

12-02-2008, 03:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
thegit Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Iowa. Posts: 1,056	Michigan really needs some good news and a some er, "help" in these tough economic times. Perhaps some assistance by the Comic Book Journos (who feeds them?) is in order. m

12-02-2008, 03:27 AM	#12 (permalink)
dmh Registered User Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 568	I skipped to the part that mentioned the Lotus did a 3.16.6 Who were the test drivers? I know the Full and North Courses quite well. What course did they run -- the Grand? __________________ http://www.dmhmotorsports.net/ As Luke the Drifter says: "We Americans got so tired of being thought of as dumb by the rest of the world that we went to the polls last November and removed all doubt."

12-02-2008, 04:09 AM	#13 (permalink)
Darth G-F Liberté! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,329	Ok my Elise is now for sale. I bought it because I thought it was the fastest car on earth. Time to sell and buy that SRT8 instead! American muscle ftw!!! __________________ 2006 Ronin Supercharged Lotus Elise 2008 BMW 328Xi

12-02-2008, 04:21 AM	#14 (permalink)
Darth G-F Liberté! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Quebec City Posts: 1,329	The AD07 are not bad oem tires, they're pretty good in fact. The problem is with the front tires. The 175 size front tires were designed to remove all trace of oversteer for less skilled drivers. The thing is, the Elise/Exige, like any other car, does most of its braking with the front brakes. With only 175 of contact patch, the braking power, especially on track is greatly diminished. Then there this understeer designed into the base suspension/tires that definately hurt lap times. I think 195 or 205 front AD07 would significantly improve the grip for both braking and turning. But still, in base form, an ExigeS with base suspension/tires (if such an animal really exist) is not as fast as a real car with 425 of the finest american horses... __________________ 2006 Ronin Supercharged Lotus Elise 2008 BMW 328Xi Last edited by Darth G-F : 12-02-2008 at 10:22 AM.

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