Ronn Motor Company Unveiled Hydrogen Scorpion Sportscar

[RichS]

Jonathan,

How about a meet and greet with the Austin Lotus crowd at your shop? Looking at pictures is one thing, but seeing the model in person would allow us to give more directed feedback. Many of us track our cars A LOT and could provide better feedback by sitting in the car (I'm not suggesting driving it, unless of course you need feedback on that too).

So far, I think the car looks fantastic. However, the seats look almost Corvette like, which is a bit of a turn off for me. The big thing that bothers me with many 'super cars' is the lack of a functional cockpit. Too many have features that make the car less usable as a car (shifter too high on the transmission tunnel, steering wheel to big, etc.).

Also, do you have some input on what the expected use of this car is? Sunday driver? Track car? 'Halo car' like the Tesla?

I'll be in Vegas this week, but could stop by at the end of the week (Friday) or on the weekend.

If you're interested in hosting some folks who are passionate (and I mean REALLY passionate) about cars, let us know.

Rich

[local600]

Not only do I think this car looks great, I'm excited about the technology. Anyone who says it's rubbish or perpetual motion doesn't fully understand it and has never done it.

Yes, electrolysis wastes energy in the process, but what is not taken into account is the potential energy released in the form of hydrogen. It's like lifting a heavy garage door to release a Lotus, the two actions are unrelated.

The other thing is that if one uses a 555 timer to pulse the electricity going into the system (thereby converting it to an AC system) at the right frequency, the water molecule ruptures apart into Oxygen and Hydrogen quite easily and efficiently. Tesla found that everything can be tuned to a frequency and rattled apart, even his own building.

Short story long, I have made a few hydrogen fuel cells and it's easy. Getting it to work in a car required three other things: The electronics I mentioned, a special fuel delivery system similar to a propane carb and a drastic adjustment of the engine timing. A stainless exhaust system wouldn't hurt either.

So, you're creating Hydrogen (the smallest, lightest, most flammable element known to man) under the hood as you need it and not carrying around dangerous tanks of the stuff or worrying about where to get it. Stan Meyer who discovered this created a dune buggy that could go coast to coast on 22 gallons.

This is the answer we've been waiting for and what I would say to any skeptic is: You know that anything that burns can be used as fuel, now let me show you how I can make this water burn.

[GryphonAuto]

As far as all questions about the technology and company, I’m an independent “Automotive Design Consultant” and do not represent the company (PR is not my specialty). I personally am located in the Detroit area & only have my slightly customized Toyota MR2 Spyder to test drive (in exchange for test-driving your Elise of course).
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The design is CGI (3d, computer graphics); I’m working on a few tweaks/updates before the final release which is why I’m asking for opinions; so far it’s 98% “that’s cool” and 1% “that’s ugly” with no explanation; which doesn’t help me become a better designer or improve the final release.
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The chassis is quite real though, but I highly doubt test-drives will be available until it’s complete. If you wish to meet them, their contact information is on www.RonnMotors.com; I’d wait for press to die down first though.
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The seats are a customized Recaro Trend (ignore my sloppy CG).
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Thanks for the design analysis, I took some notes! I won’t comment on everything just yet (like to get more opinions before muddying the waters), but having an alternative hood-vent-mesh option should be simple enough. Black chrome? Perhaps an example image would work best. Is that the “color” you want for the trim or paint on the car?<o>
</o>

[Serebo1]

Originally Posted by GryphonAuto

Thanks for the design analysis, I took some notes! I won’t comment on everything just yet (like to get more opinions before muddying the waters), but having an alternative hood-vent-mesh option should be simple enough. Black chrome? Perhaps an example image would work best. Is that the “color” you want for the trim or paint on the car?<o>
</o>

Black Chrome for the wheels - here's a pic. Perhaps someone has a better image?



To further clarify my comment about the vents, sharp edges on this car really draw your eyes, as it flows so beautifully everywhere else. Kind of like "which of these things do not belong..." I think that's also why I'm wanting to see something more graceful around the roll bar area, ala the CGT. As for color scheme, wait for it...matte black would be insane on this car.

[Aedo]

Originally Posted by GryphonAuto

Thanks for the design analysis, I took some notes! I won’t comment on everything just yet (like to get more opinions before muddying the waters), but having an alternative hood-vent-mesh option should be simple enough.

Jonathan – great design and great renderings (my favourite is the rear ¾ view of the black car)! I have a couple of specific comments on the design; to me the car would look best if the rear wheels were essentially the widest part of the car – the side scoops running wider in the middle of the car doesn’t look quite right to me (its effect is most obvious in the front ¾ view of the blue car). Also the rear spoiler doesn’t seem to “fit” the car but seems an add on – not sure what would change that effect Naturally this is only my opinion and minor points only! Look forward to seeing a final view and then seeing it on the road!!

Cheers,
Aedo

Originally Posted by GryphonAuto

Black chrome? Perhaps an example image would work best. Is that the “color” you want for the trim or paint on the car?<o>
</o>

This headlight is done in black chrome – the plating method causes the chrome plating to be high gloss black rather than silver and retains the performance of the chrome in terms of toughness and corrosion resistance (most chrome plating shops can do it).

Originally Posted by Serebo1

…As for color scheme, wait for it...matte black would be insane on this car.

Why is that a surprise

Originally Posted by local600

… Anyone who says it's rubbish or perpetual motion doesn't fully understand it and has never done it.

Yes, electrolysis wastes energy in the process, but what is not taken into account is the potential energy released in the form of hydrogen. It's like lifting a heavy garage door to release a Lotus, the two actions are unrelated.
..snip..
Short story long, I have made a few hydrogen fuel cells and it's easy. Getting it to work in a car required three other things: The electronics I mentioned, a special fuel delivery system similar to a propane carb and a drastic adjustment of the engine timing. A stainless exhaust system wouldn't hurt either.

Who said anything about fuel cells? Putting a hydrogen fuel cell power solution in this car would be amazing!

Perhaps I was a little too blunt in my earlier post…but the proposed system on the Ronn Motors website has been proposed by shadetree mechanics since the dawn of the internal combustion engine and while I applaud their can do attitude the proposed system contravenes the laws of thermodynamics.

OH – and I worked in the fuel cell industry for 5years so have some idea of what I am talking about

Originally Posted by local600

So, you're creating Hydrogen (the smallest, lightest, most flammable element known to man) under the hood as you need it and not carrying around dangerous tanks of the stuff or worrying about where to get it. Stan Meyer who discovered this created a dune buggy that could go coast to coast on 22 gallons.

This is the answer we've been waiting for and what I would say to any skeptic is: You know that anything that burns can be used as fuel, now let me show you how I can make this water burn.

Are you claiming that Stan Meyers device worked despite never being independently tested and the fact that he was charged with “gross and egregious fraud”?

[nockpoint]

Originally Posted by Serebo1

Second, the lines of the car are clean and flow quite nicely. Unfortunately, my eyes are being drawn to the shark fin venting on the front bonnet (?). I'd personally prefer mesh, which would be much more elegant.

+1 mesh is already in use in two other areas on the car and they seem to work well there.

I do think the headlights are working for this design. From the front, the reflective swoosh drawing your eyes from/along the outer edge of the vehicle pointing down at the nose of the car. It's reminiscent of the headlights on the R8 but much more at home.

The side mirrors seem to droop a bit and appear hidden within the folds of the car - http://www.gryphonauto.com/vehicles/...images/004.jpg Functionally I don't know how that would affect them but I'd love to see with a slight up angle.

Aggressive and elegant at the same time. Very appealing desktop *cough* design. Yeah I couldn't resist making it my desktop for the week... it's damn good looking!

[TheBrander]

Jonathan,

I'd like to see what the design would look like if you "sharpened the edges". Right now, it's so rounded that it looks "inflatable" and bloated. I'm not a designer but I think what I'm trying to describe is the existing surface approximated by piece-wise planes, almost like the Lamborghini Reventon, but not quite that extreme.You should definitely keep the side flare. Side flare is why the Elise is so gorgeous and the Corvette is not.

Brian

[GryphonAuto]

I'll read/reply to everyone either later tonight or tomorrow (sorry, have some fun activities planned), but I did some pictures with flat-black paint & WOW; I didn't expect it to look so . . . well, I'll just show you when I have time to throw it on my website.

- Jon

[Aedo]

Jon,

Love the matt black version

[IamBatman]

I'll believe it when I see an actual production model. Right not its just vaporware.

[Serebo1]

Originally Posted by Aedo

Jon,

Love the matt black version

[LMM]

The Scorpion just got selected "Publishers Choice" by the duPont Registry(TM). Don't know what this really means, but hopefully it will push this car one step closer to production.

LMM

[Monsi]

thats the same computer case I used to build my computer! tho mine is black not green

[Tracktimeplz]

It looks sexy as all can be, as is, I cant think of any exterior feature id want changed. Its unique and sleek, very eye poping.

Keep up the good work!

[Tintin]

Originally Posted by Chococar

We did some work on hydrogen supplementing gasoline combustion when I worked at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory back in the '70's. We produced hydrogen-rich gases by catalytically breaking down some of the gasoline, using waste heat from the engine exhaust.

The point was to be able to run much leaner than possible with gasoline alone. This reduced combustion temperatures, dramatically reducing NOx emissions, and improved engine efficiency.

--Joe

Do you think that the improved engine efficiency could be enough to overcome the losses inherent in generating the hydrogen electrically (which is being generated by an alternator which is attached to said engine in the first place)?

At the moment I'm in the skeptical camp with Aero. To me it sounds like a scam to get lots of deposits to pay the "executives" before declaring bankruptcy. But hey, if it actually worked and was independently verified, then I would be impressed.

[evomind]

Originally Posted by GryphonAuto

What's up?

I have a lot more pictures of the Scorpion at my website. HERE. The reason I stopped by is I'm looking for opinions on the style of the car. I'm always looking for ways to improve & see what I overlooked.

So, I'm looking for some "design analysis" and no you don't have to be an artist (or even a car guy) to tell me "Hey, I think this area could improve" or "I love this, don't change it!" So tell me, what do you like, dislike, think should never be changed, think could be better?

Thanks!
- Jonathan Griffin

the car looks fantastic, dont change a thing.
and dont listen to folks on the elise board for styling cues, as they wont be happy till it looks like a miata.

[Monsi]

I'm curious what happens to the extra hydrogen chemically speaking... obviously if it joined up with just Oxygen again you would be running into problems with the basic laws of thermodynamics... but if it forms something besides water it is possible to have a positive effect

[...m...]

...i think the scorpion's just gorgeous as-is, the less filigree the better...is anyone else reminded of lotus' hot wheels concept?..

[John Stimson]

Originally Posted by local600

Yes, electrolysis wastes energy in the process, but what is not taken into account is the potential energy released in the form of hydrogen.

Actually it takes that fully into account. The efficiency is calculated by comparing the input electrical energy to the change in chemical bond energy going from H2O to H2 and O2. Which is the theoretical maximum amount of energy you could get back out if you burned the hydrogen gas and captured all of the heat.

As mentioned, this is not a fuel cell vehicle. It is a vehicle powered by a combustion engine burning hydrogen. A fuel cell extracts electric energy from the voltage & current generated by allowing the fuel and the oxidizer combine by diffusing across a permeable membrane. An internal combustion engine extracts mechanical energy by burning the fuel in an enclosed space and using the resulting pressure to push on pistons or rotors connected to a driveshaft.

The other thing is that if one uses a 555 timer to pulse the electricity going into the system (thereby converting it to an AC system) at the right frequency, the water molecule ruptures apart into Oxygen and Hydrogen quite easily and efficiently. Tesla found that everything can be tuned to a frequency and rattled apart, even his own building.

Yes, electrolysis has been known for many decades, and the most efficient ways to do it are common knowledge. The 70% efficiency quoted above is about as good as it gets.

It also does not include the loss of efficiency due to how the electrical energy was originally generated -- in this case, it was generated by burning gasoline in an internal combustion engine.

Short story long, I have made a few hydrogen fuel cells and it's easy. Getting it to work in a car required three other things: The electronics I mentioned, a special fuel delivery system similar to a propane carb and a drastic adjustment of the engine timing. A stainless exhaust system wouldn't hurt either.

A car driven by a hydrogen fuel cell would not have an engine to adjust the timing on. It would have an electric motor.

This is the answer we've been waiting for and what I would say to any skeptic is: You know that anything that burns can be used as fuel, now let me show you how I can make this water burn.

Oh, taking water and "burning" it is easy! Apparently understanding how much energy goes in and how much energy comes back out is not as easy.

[trappertrevor]

connect or change the head lights no shiny chrome on a car like this its tacky