Is there any such thing as a four-door sports car?

[WhitePlume]

Sold my RX8 to get the Liz. Definitely a sports car, definitely 4-door. I even kept car seats in the back for the kids. Uber scary in the snow, though. Even with ultra-conservative driving it couldn't decide which axle was supposed to be in front. Still, I miss it.

EDIT: Yes, we own a minivan...

[RedSchmutz]

Porsche Panamerica?

On second thought, its clearly a GT... which IMO is a plush four door sports car. But I concede, its a GT.

[MikeC]

IMHO there are 4 door sporty cars, but a sports car is built for a single purpose.... for the sport of driving. In that case; No, there are no 4 door sports cars, nor are FWD cars sports cars. Sporty cars, yes. Sports cars, No.

[Abe]

Started a family WAY early in life so for ME, the M3 sedan was MY sports car and it even had the best SPORTS transmission.....automatic

[tvacc]

Originally Posted by PhlypSide

I haven't driven an M100, too much money for a FWD car.

To me (and many) FWD does not a sportscar make

A Honda DC2 or DC5 Integra Type R is a fantastic handling car, but I think all but the most dedicated of FWD fanatics would agree that it isn't a sports car either.

Original Elan = sportscar
M100 Elan = sporty car (IMO Lotus went retarded and ran with this experiment, while Mazda ripped them off shamelessly with the Miata and made Millions )

Did Lotus ever make Front-wheel driven cars before the M100? (I'm no expert but I'm thinking no).

Yep...thought the same way till I swapped my Seven with Don F at LOG19 in Watkins Glen on an extened back road....high speed drive. Take an M100 on a high speed backroad drive. Then tell me it is not a sports car.

There is a reason that the Lotus test driver Miles..cant remember his whole name...called it the fastest way between 2 points on a back road.

The M100 is the ONLY FWD sports car that does not handleor drive like a FWD sports. It is as amazing then as the Elise is now...14 years later...really.

I understand that everyone is entitled to their opinion. and please realize I am saying this with a smile on my face...no disrespect intended..but in this case you just plain wrong about the Elan. Drive one at speed...on a back road...then tell me it is not sports car.


Oh...and this was Lotus only FWD car ever. The technology was exceptional and NO other FWD car is like it....

[Spudboy]

Originally Posted by tvacc

Oh...and this was Lotus only FWD car ever. The technology was exceptional and NO other FWD car is like it....

Care to expand on this? What technology are you referring to? Why does nobody do it anymore? Was it too expensive to mass produce?

For the record, I don't buy into half the excuses people here have posted for what makes a sports car. They are all just opinions, and like a**holes, everbody has one.

[jmfangio]

I'll throw in my vote for two of the original Q-cars, the Mercedes 300SEL 6.3, and the BMW e28 chassis M5.

[Toad]

>>Care to expand on this? What technology are you referring to? Why does nobody do it anymore? Was it too expensive to mass produce?

http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/m100-l...al/m100lcu.htm

Check out section under Interactive Wishbone

One must consider that the M100 came out at a time when there was no traction control, and other stability features. It doesn't even have abs.

[mrluky]

I dont really have that big of a resume when it comes to driving sports cars, but I know what my definition would be.

Resume:
A4, S4, RS4, RX8, Elise, '04 M3, '06 STI, Cayman S, '06 M Roadster. and SUVs

-Performance Oriented.
-Relatively Small. This usualy makes it a 2 Door, but in some cases, there could very well be four doors.
-Responsive and gives feed back. Doesnt make attempts to detatch from that driving experience(ala tons of sound dampering, and soft sidewalls). Some creature comforts don't nessacarily detract from the experience(good speakers/cup holders/rear visibility).
**Is fun to drive**

The 8 may not be that fast, but wringing out the engine to 9.5k+ everytime sure is fun, and it can take turns as fast as im prepared to go. It makes a noise unlike any car ive ever been in. On deceleration, the sound reminds me of a jet turbine. To me, its a sportscar. A sports car I can go solo in the back roads and have a fun time, or I can take 3 freinds to dinner in it, but I wouldn't try it.

Of course, there are extremes like the Elise and Atom.

If you really wanted a definative way to categorize cars and thier sport-ness. Do it by the chassis, and Engine Placement. In which case it would be something like this:

Sports Cars
Lotus Elise
Lotus Exige-and Variants
Ariel Atom

Everything Else

But I may be a tad biased.

[tvacc]

Originally Posted by brgm100

>>Care to expand on this? What technology are you referring to? Why does nobody do it anymore? Was it too expensive to mass produce?

http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/m100-l...al/m100lcu.htm

Check out section under Interactive Wishbone

One must consider that the M100 came out at a time when there was no traction control, and other stability features. It doesn't even have abs.

Yes....as I understood it...the front of the car was basically 3 "sleds"...one for each wheel and then the engine. They were all connected but seperate. They moved indepentently. When you drive an Elan there is no sensation of front wheel drive at all. The car feels rear wheel drive and handles as such.

I drove Elans from about 98-2003. I drive the same roads all the time on the way to a LOONY breakfast. I also had a Caterham at the time and the Elise now. Since I can compare I can say that I NEVER reached the cornering limit in the Elan. Could easily do it in the Caterham and can almost do it in the Elise. Now I am still a little afraid of the Elise at the limit...so I dont know where the "end" is...but it feels like it is lower than the Elan. My feeling is that it is not...that the Elise is a faster car but it just does not feel as stable at the limit at the Elan was. It may be my inexperiece...so might be off base here.

And yes...the technology in the Elan was too expensive to produce. I have always felt the GM used the Elan to test and prototype a lot of the features of the Corvette (panels and hood)....suspension for their other front wheel drive cars...and then wrote it off to Lotus. I dont have any proof of that...but when I look at the cars from GM at the time and since...I see Elan Bits. I remember a Lotus guy telling me that at the time the Esprit cost them about 16K to build...and they sold it for 60K. The Elan cost them 23K and they first listed it at 40K...then it really only sold at 25-29K.


Edit at 11:24pm. After reading the article..apparently there is one "sled" for the engine..with the suspension from each side independent....by bushings.. It really was a great design.


Edit at 11:50 But the front brakes were terrible. The damn car just would not stop. If you want to drive one at speed..you need to get uprated front brakes!!!

[khamai]

Originally Posted by brgm100
[url

http://www.gglotus.org/ggtech/m100-lcu-manual/m100lcu.htm[/url]

Check out section under Interactive Wishbone

Thanks for the plug!

I helped write this piece (contracting for LCU) as part of the 1991-92 Lotus Cars Sales Training Manual.

The M100 Elan is grossly under appreciated. In my book it re-defined "sports car" from being strictly RWD. If you didn't know better you'd think it was RWD. It's the only FWD car that I've driven that I could control the rearend with the throttle. It has drop-throttle oversteer, that will bite you hard if you lift mid-turn.

Like too many Lotus cars it was ahead of its time.

Cheers,
Kiyoshi

P.S. There's a similar "Sales Manual" for the '91 Esprit that I was involved in as well.

[srwhitman]

Check out SCI: http://www.sci-mag.com/
If you like sports cars, this is the magazine to get. They have pondered the actual definition over the years. I think the original definition (whenever that was) seemed to apply only to 2 door 2 seat convertibles. At the time, there was no FWD (or AWD for that matter) in such a beast so it might not have been considered a sports car. But that was really in the 60s or 70s. The definition appears to have been expanded somewhat these days. I'd argue that any car that handles well and holds its own on a track in relatively stock form should be considered a sports car.

Also, regarding the M100, I have one and own the book by Mark Hughes who wrote extensively about it. It was not really designed originally to be cheap to produce. Actually, in Europe, they were quite successful but by the time it was sold in the states the price creeped up from the original $33K to $39K. However, I bought mine used 5 years later for $23.5K and its held its value remarkably well. Recent examples have sold for anywhere between $10K to $15K (some folks ask more for particularly mint examples). In comparison to the Elise, well, its definitely not nearly as fast (mostly because it has 30 less horsepower and about 400 lbs more weight). The biggest problem is that the offline performance pretty much sucks until the turbo kicks in but thats not as much a problem on the track (similar to the Elise, just gotta keep the revs up). As someone else mentioned, the stock brakes suck but I replaced mine a few years ago with better calipers and rotors and it made a huge difference.

The Elan is a much more comfortable car to live with every day than the Elise and it feels much more like a conventional car than the Elise does (for better or worse). It gets better gas mileage than the Elise and has a more usable trunk. The looks, while being a bit dated, still turns heads and since there are only 500 or so in the USA, it doesn't feel as old as it actually is. Its a nice change of pace from the buzzy engine behind your head in the Elise and its still a lot of fun on the track or on back roads. My feeling is that its better than a Miata (even the newest ones) but not as good as an Elise but still very much a sports car. There is the slightest amount of torque steer but in general you don't really notice the front wheel drive.

Variety is the spice of life. I just wish I could drive more sports cars to enjoy all of them .

Scott

[nugg_dawg]

Alain de Cadenet from "Victory by Design" said something like front engined RWD 2 door targa is a classic example of a true sports car. I can't remember exactly what he said but it was something along those lines. Or was he describing a GT car?


I can't remember now.....


John

[Moto44]

Can you identify these cars? Which ones are the sports cars?

I am clearly prejudiced when it comes to cars. These all look the same to me.

[Slade]

Originally Posted by Moto44

Can you identify these cars? Which ones are the sports cars?

I am clearly prejudiced when it comes to cars. These all look the same to me.

That's interesting. To me looks have very little to do with whether something is a sports car. The definition is more about the purpose of the vehicle. Just because a car is a 'sleeper' doesn't mean it isn't an amazing performer. However, I can see why the rs4 would be considered a GT car by many.

[MickOpalak]

Originally Posted by Slade

Just because a car is a 'sleeper' doesn't mean it isn't an amazing performer.

Just because a car is an amazing performer doesn't mean its a sports car. To me, a sports car follows a formula: RWD, two seats, small, light, incredible handling, etc.

[Slade]

Originally Posted by MickOpalak

Just because a car is an amazing performer doesn't mean its a sports car. To me, a sports car follows a formula: RWD, two seats, small, light, incredible handling, etc.

That's what this thread is about - discussing what views you have and why you disagree. What is it about those qualities that you appreciate? For me the essence of a sports car isn't it's layout or how many doors it has.

[cargasmic]

Yes =)




I do agree with the post above me. I just consider it a sportscar because it does a fine job of keeping my mind off missing my Supra.

[Hanzo]

These are just a few.

[Suddhodana]

How about that one?