APR GT Wing - Page 3 - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community
 
LotusTalk.com is the premier Lotus Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-05-2012, 09:44 AM   #41 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MacLotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 199
Well said (both of you). But cost is truly the limiting factor for optimal performance. Most race teams (except maybe Ganassi) lack the funds to custom develop all the parts on there cars and resort to performance suppliers and sponsors for top tier parts. Another BIG limiting factor is Race Class Specs which usually dictate size and placement of wings and other aero to ensure fair competition. I think at the speeds we're at on the track, the downforce and/or drag is not going gain/lose significant lap time. Most of us will make enough mistakes that will have more of an effect on lap time. When hundredths of a second matter to a pro, then it might be critical.
__________________
1999 Lotus Elise S1 'Sport 190' - Acura TSX K24 Power
DIY Engine Conversion Thread
DIY Widebody Conversion
MacLotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-05-2012, 09:50 AM   #42 (permalink)
One corner at a time
 
rosscarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
Most of us will make enough mistakes that will have more of an effect on lap time
Possibly the smartest thing that's been said in this thread. Almost none of us are so close to the limit with our cars that these tiny variances matter. That said I'm a fan of the "right" setup - hell I once asked a guy at APR if they were ever going to develop/create a DRS wing. His response was (while laughing) "uh, no - that's way beyond the scope of what we create".

I'll admit that while I track my car and as such wanted as much downforce as I could get I primarily put the wing on as I think you can't have big enough of a wing on an Elige. I did do full aero (skirts, canards, BOE diffuser, APR wing) so I would have as balanced a setup as possible but also because I think it makes my car look so much meaner.

This winter I should pull all my aero and go run some laps, then put it back on and check my Traqmate data - would be interesting to see...
__________________
2006 Exige | BOE Rev400 (357whp) | JC Head | ProAlloy | ForceFed | BOE QS | ITG Airbox | BOE catch cans | gPan2 | Setrab | JUBU | Tillet B5s | Scroth 6pt | OMP Superquadro | interior/HVAC delete | Traqmate | Chasecam | Lift Point Kit | Ultradiscs | RBF 600 | RS14 | Vented Pistons | V2 arms | BOELinks | ShiftEnforcer | Manly mounts | Braille | Yoko S01s | R888s | GTC-200 & Canards | RACEsills | BOE UnderAero | F1 Livery

V8 Pathfinder LE
Former: Audi RS 4 | Legacy Spec.B | Volvo S60R | 350Z
rosscarlson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 12:50 PM   #43 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MacLotus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 199
Looking menacing in the paddock is half the fun.
__________________
1999 Lotus Elise S1 'Sport 190' - Acura TSX K24 Power
DIY Engine Conversion Thread
DIY Widebody Conversion
MacLotus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 12:57 PM   #44 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Plackslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 3,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacLotus View Post
Looking menacing in the paddock is half the fun.
Hence why I'm still looking to find a wing for the Evora that isn't so damned expensive lol.
Plackslayer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #45 (permalink)
6i9
Registered User
 
6i9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,643
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosscarlson View Post
As far as I've ever seen nothing like this really exists for aero components at this price. For a company to do that level of testing on every car would be extremely cost prohibitive. I'm guessing there are what, 100 of us that have the APR wing. Even at $1k a piece that's far short of what it would cost them to properly develop a wing as you describe.

Don't misunderstand - I'd love this too I just don't think it's feasible. Then again maybe this is why the Reverie wing is more expensive than saffron.
Correct. It's up to the person but the general consensus is that Reverie, Voltex, and the like do CFD and wind tunnel testing to validate. APR on the other hand only does CFD modeling, and only on the wing in isolation. This means the wing is CFD modeled but not on any particular modeled application. That is why the wing is universal, but the downforce on each application is not universal.

Whereas companies like Reverie build their wings specifically for the Lotus body and have the wind tunnel videos on Youtube to prove it

Obviously its true the driver makes more difference than the relatively small aero efficiency differences between APR and other companies. But I would rather be using the best tool for the job at least But to each their own!
__________________
2005 Magnetic Blue Lotus Exige
Drivetrain: Honda K20A Type R | Innovative Kit | Arqray Ti | SCM Intake/Header | Hondata | proRAD | Setrab | KTuned | V2 Fuel Tank | Radium
Aero: Exige Clams | Reverie | TWRD GT-Lip | Craftsquare | IMRP | BSK | Voltex
Suspension: Nitron SA | V2arms | RTDbrace | CE28N | R888 | BOE FF Rotors/Pistons | RC6
Interior: Recaro SPG | Willans | WorksBell | Sparco
6i9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 06:27 PM   #46 (permalink)
Back to the Future, again
 
Notorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: LaLaLand
Posts: 5,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack View Post
FWIW, the "aero" experts have told me that the APR wing is very inefficient, i.e., it produces significantly more drag for a given amount of downforce than certain other wings on the market. Of course, those other wings cost more.
Right.

And as a longtime motorcycle racer who's seen the same maniacal devotion to buying the best race parts for every little quantum improvement by casual trackday riders, or worse, street riders... it is all pretty much an academic or theoretical discussion at the end.

I bet you for pretty much everyone here or anywhere who is not a professional racer or top level club racer, your twitching or missed shift or momentary lapse in concentration will cost you more than any configuration of wing or brand or price of wing in question.

If you have to get down to that point where you have to worry about the extra drag of the APR wing versus the Reverie wing for the given downforce, you are probably not in the right place for what you are doing, that is... if you have to worry down to that much of a minute detail, maybe you need a team manager or other support crew too in your race team because you are way beyond a casual trackday person or club racer. And if you are not a pro, go learn more about driving than which wing has a lower Cd for the downforce at what price point.
__________________
My 2009 Elise for sale: MoMo SloMo MoFo Joyrides upon request w/lots o' cash money http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...-995-a-116554/
Notorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 06:30 PM   #47 (permalink)
Back to the Future, again
 
Notorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: LaLaLand
Posts: 5,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6i9 View Post
But I would rather be using the best tool for the job at least But to each their own!
What job would that be?
__________________
My 2009 Elise for sale: MoMo SloMo MoFo Joyrides upon request w/lots o' cash money http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...-995-a-116554/
Notorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2012, 08:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
Right.

And as a longtime motorcycle racer who's seen the same maniacal devotion to buying the best race parts for every little quantum improvement by casual trackday riders, or worse, street riders... it is all pretty much an academic or theoretical discussion at the end.

I bet you for pretty much everyone here or anywhere who is not a professional racer or top level club racer, your twitching or missed shift or momentary lapse in concentration will cost you more than any configuration of wing or brand or price of wing in question.

If you have to get down to that point where you have to worry about the extra drag of the APR wing versus the Reverie wing for the given downforce, you are probably not in the right place for what you are doing, that is... if you have to worry down to that much of a minute detail, maybe you need a team manager or other support crew too in your race team because you are way beyond a casual trackday person or club racer. And if you are not a pro, go learn more about driving than which wing has a lower Cd for the downforce at what price point.
Don't be a hater. How would you know where my "right place" is?

This is my personal point of view: If I were buying a wing and I could buy one from the OEM supplier to Lotus and they had tested their aero part on my specific car in the WT and published data to back up their claims regarding the aerodynamic functionality/efficiency of the part, that's the one I would buy. It doesn't mean you or anybody else needs it. Different strokes for different folks.

I always like buying the best, if possible, then I can avoid any future regrets.

And, I'm not a pro racer, like you, but I do a lot of tracking. Peace my friend and happy holidays!

My two track cars.......
Attached Images
  
__________________
Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2012 Radical SR3
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion

Last edited by Jack; 12-06-2012 at 05:08 AM.
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:02 AM   #49 (permalink)
One corner at a time
 
rosscarlson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 2,100
Quote:
If I were buying a wing and I could buy one from the OEM supplier to Lotus and they had tested their aero part on my specific car in the WT and published data to back up their claims regarding the aerodynamic functionality/efficiency of the part, that's the one I would buy.
Totally agree - but does that exist? I think it doesn't - at least I've never seen any sort of data for WT testing for our cars. I could very easily be wrong here...
__________________
2006 Exige | BOE Rev400 (357whp) | JC Head | ProAlloy | ForceFed | BOE QS | ITG Airbox | BOE catch cans | gPan2 | Setrab | JUBU | Tillet B5s | Scroth 6pt | OMP Superquadro | interior/HVAC delete | Traqmate | Chasecam | Lift Point Kit | Ultradiscs | RBF 600 | RS14 | Vented Pistons | V2 arms | BOELinks | ShiftEnforcer | Manly mounts | Braille | Yoko S01s | R888s | GTC-200 & Canards | RACEsills | BOE UnderAero | F1 Livery

V8 Pathfinder LE
Former: Audi RS 4 | Legacy Spec.B | Volvo S60R | 350Z
rosscarlson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:34 AM   #50 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Jack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosscarlson View Post
Totally agree - but does that exist? I think it doesn't - at least I've never seen any sort of data for WT testing for our cars. I could very easily be wrong here...
Ross,

You can find the wind tunnel testing here ....Reverie Manufactured Rear Wing Lotus Exige S2 Windtunnel Testing Series

More Lotus specific info can be found here..... Exige S2 motorsport rear wing, 225mm chord, 1000mm long, carbon, fixed tailgate mounted - Carbon fibre rear wings for Lotus

In general, I think that you will find their website an interesting read, especially some of their technical info ......Technical Data :: Reverie

Btw, the standard 2-11 rear wing came from Reverie

All the best,
__________________
Jack
2008 2-Eleven
2012 Radical SR3
Track videos ... http://www.youtube.com/jackcup
2010 Lotus Challenge Series ULTRA Class champion
2012 Lotus CUP USA OPEN Class champion
Jack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 09:26 AM   #51 (permalink)
6i9
Registered User
 
6i9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,643
Images: 1
Yes that was the Reverie data that I was referring to, thanks for posting Jack

Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
What job would that be?
I don't think you need to be a professional racer with a team to enjoy squeezing out the best laptime. Better tools can also help better develop your inherent speed and talent too.

No one here is saying buying into aero parts without developing driving skills is the better option. All that is being said is objectively, the APR wing is not the best solution. For the price point it may be for some people though.

Following your logic, only professional drivers should spring for better equipment, such as an Exige S vs an Elise. Nothing wrong with somebody choosing to buy the better equipment if their so choose and can afford to
__________________
2005 Magnetic Blue Lotus Exige
Drivetrain: Honda K20A Type R | Innovative Kit | Arqray Ti | SCM Intake/Header | Hondata | proRAD | Setrab | KTuned | V2 Fuel Tank | Radium
Aero: Exige Clams | Reverie | TWRD GT-Lip | Craftsquare | IMRP | BSK | Voltex
Suspension: Nitron SA | V2arms | RTDbrace | CE28N | R888 | BOE FF Rotors/Pistons | RC6
Interior: Recaro SPG | Willans | WorksBell | Sparco
6i9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 09:56 AM   #52 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 227
agree with the arguments going on here

for me id love to justify spending close to$3k for a reverie wing that has all the R&D put into it, but i think I am not a good enough of a driver to fully utilize the extra benefits YET

i just got my exige 6 - 8 months ago, and only had 2 track days in it

however, in the years to come when im more used to the car + platform i would def. get R&D'd stuff instead of "off the shelf" parts

but for $500 (used) i cant complain for the APR wing
kixo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 07:19 PM   #53 (permalink)
Back to the Future, again
 
Notorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: LaLaLand
Posts: 5,809
No hate going on and yes, buy the best you can afford. However, my point, and which you guys are missing, is that without you being that good, is that every little bit of performance on a part is purely academic or hypothetical if you cannot realize that performance.

That is, I can argue all day long about buying a tuned 1911 for $10k because it theoretically can shoot better than a $500 Glock. But can I shoot that well? Nope.

But if I want it because I want it and it is what I can afford, then nothing wrong with that too. But to nitpick and denigrate other things which are not super tuned to the top level because of something that is not going to be realized, and say that is why you bought it, is what sounds silly.

So... yeah, I am buying that super tuned R&D wing with a few less drag points for more downforce points over the cheaper one that is not tuned so well or drags more for the given downforce... okay... that's great... what difference does it make in your driving? None, but it makes me feel better and I can benchrace that much faster... okay... thanks.
__________________
My 2009 Elise for sale: MoMo SloMo MoFo Joyrides upon request w/lots o' cash money http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...-995-a-116554/
Notorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-06-2012, 08:48 PM   #54 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Notorious View Post
No hate going on and yes, buy the best you can afford. However, my point, and which you guys are missing, is that without you being that good, is that every little bit of performance on a part is purely academic or hypothetical if you cannot realize that performance.

That is, I can argue all day long about buying a tuned 1911 for $10k because it theoretically can shoot better than a $500 Glock. But can I shoot that well? Nope.

But if I want it because I want it and it is what I can afford, then nothing wrong with that too. But to nitpick and denigrate other things which are not super tuned to the top level because of something that is not going to be realized, and say that is why you bought it, is what sounds silly.

So... yeah, I am buying that super tuned R&D wing with a few less drag points for more downforce points over the cheaper one that is not tuned so well or drags more for the given downforce... okay... that's great... what difference does it make in your driving? None, but it makes me feel better and I can benchrace that much faster... okay... thanks.
completely agree with you

but also very subjective to those that may think they "need" it
coming from tracking miata and e46 m3, im relatively new to MR plateform but indeed no newcomer in terms of tracking

id like to add for myself (unsure about others here) having going through cars and wasting lots of time and money, ive finally landed on the exige as my track / weekend car
this time around, im pretty satisfied with what im doing to my car as to the past

more footwork (nitron doubles, canards, custom splitter, diffuser) before power!
but after doing research and needing to balance the car in terms of the added aero i needed the wing to balance out the front splitter + canards

keyword for me here is balance
others may like to modify power first before anything, but what track time + time + wasted money taught me my priority goes to tires, brakes, suspension, then aero. i can worry about power later

pretty damn excited for next track season as I never had aero on a car before, so i cant wait for the end result
kixo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2012, 03:17 AM   #55 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Westrock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 2,825
3 things I would like to note about the APR wing.

1. The wing DOES NOT mount to the frame. The two bolts the struts in the trunk mount to at the base of the trunk are actually whats holding your license plate grill in place. So the struts are really just securing the wing to the two layers of the trunk fiberglass. Better then nothing, but not the frame like I incorrectly thought for a couple years.

2. My clam has visible cracks in the clear coat spidering out from the brackets. I've had mine installed for a couple years now.

3. Mine did not come with any foam to go between the brackets and the clam. I ended up buying foam door stripping from Home Depot.

I love mine. I bought it cause I'm a ricer. But even so, with the canards and wing added at the same time the car does feel much smoother at 70-80MPH then it did before with just the Nitron suspension.
Westrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

  LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community > Lotus Discussions > Lotus Exige



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.