Lotus Exige 2009 260 'S'

[IsellLotus]

I have a Chrome Orange that will be here in about 4 weeks!!!

[shay2nak]

Originally Posted by LotusGreenville

Different intercooler setup and lighter flywheel.

Originally Posted by Vishus_1

+1 The IC tubes are different too. I don't know about the air box/filter. Internally - the same and I think the injectors are too.

AFAIK, same intercooler as exige S 220/240 and same intake box. Only the pipes are different...lighter ones. The exige s 260 is basically a Gotham tuned exige S.

[theob]

i've uploaded a PDF with some official information regarding the new Exige 260 here! (PDF 1.02MB)

Enjoy!

[Vishus_1]

Originally Posted by theob

i've uploaded a PDF with some official information regarding the new Exige 260 here! (PDF 1.02MB)

Enjoy!

Very interesting - first I have seen this. I assume this is a UK or European copy because I don't think we can get the CUP pack - unless that is replacing the CUP cars (that aren't street legal) here. None of the US info I have seen to this point ever mentioned a CUP pack and some of those options.

[robains]

The warranty will not apply if the car is subjected to race or competition use, including timed runs or laps.
-
If the car has ever been used on road or track with ‘slick’ or equivalent racing tyres, warranty is void.
-
If the Launch Control facility is utilised, warranty on related powertrain components is void.

too funny ... sounds like Nissan GT-R tranny warranty

All that power gain without increasing boost -- that is impressive, 8,000 rpm peak ... hmmmm ... 1 year warranty

[bueno]

Originally Posted by theob

i've uploaded a PDF with some official information regarding the new Exige 260 here! (PDF 1.02MB)

Enjoy!

These are UK spec's and not relevant to the US as it will not be a cup but rather a sport version which is street legal

Originally Posted by Vishus_1

Very interesting - first I have seen this. I assume this is a UK or European copy because I don't think we can get the CUP pack - unless that is replacing the CUP cars (that aren't street legal) here. None of the US info I have seen to this point ever mentioned a CUP pack and some of those options.

Correct, from what I'm hearing, the US will be a street legal version and will be known as an Exige 260 sport.

[theob]

Μy primary intention was to provide you guys with some information about what's new on the Exige 260. A plain Exige 260 is also available in the European market, as well as a street-legal Exige GT4-like car that will be BTO produced in 10 copies only, and a UK single-vehicle approval (SVA).
If you need more information about the latter, please let me know! I'll be happy to share this Lotus pR0n
Obviously, the Cup pack won't be available at your side of the pool being street-legal. However, you can always have some nice Cup-like upgrade "thoughts"!

Regarding warranties, all of us know that the US market is treated in a completely different (protective? ) way. Nevertheless, a more track-oriented car always comes with less warranty than its more street-focused sibling. As for the transmission, the aforementioned disclaimer is not new. The Launch control is a good way for car companies to earn some extra money from earlyworn trannies. Contrary to some existing common thoughts/beliefs, the Launch Control "feature" wears the engaging tranny components more than when we "launch" the car without this electronics applied. Not to mention that 0-anything acceleration figures have been proved to be smaller without the Launch Control engaged on many cars. Even factory drivers (eg Ferrari's factory drivers for the 599 GTB Fiorano when tested by EVO magazine staff...) have recommended not to use the LC to get improved accel figures. They even managed to get better times without it!
In racing, the financial support from sponsors and the seek for podium standing provides the needed excuse to seek the very best take-off form the startline.

I guess that the LC is only a mind-blower emulation coming from video-games. All of us like it as a feeling, but non of us are willing to pay for it in real (street) life! :P

[LotusGreenville]

Should be here today....

[robains]

theob,

You are correct, other manufacturers do the same -- but that still doesn't make a wrong a right. If Lotus or Ferrari or Nissan or Lamborghini aren't going to standby/support a feature THEY provided, then don't provide it. As Nissan have learned, in doing so it just generates bad press, bad feelings from customers, and a lot of legal battles etc. etc.

I'm not trying to be a downer on Lotus, but my Exige S WAS the least track worthy car (out of the box) that I've ever purchased. Sure the CUP (track only) variants do address the obvious issues with air charge temps, oil pressure, and fuel starvation so I can see this as the "up sell" - but they're not US street legal.

IMHO, Lotus NEED to step up to the plate and provide the following in their street legal cars:

1. Provide a fuel slosh solution
2. Provide oil pressure solution (this might be address now with Accusump in S260)
3. Provide SC air charge temp solution

These are the basics that are considerably more important the adding expensive carbon fiber parts. Get the car on a solid foundation before starting in on gloss and glitter. Don't get me wrong, I love gloss and glitter just as much as next person, but Lotus has gotta get the foundation squared away for their street cars (without it being track only car).

I still think it's a great car for those planning to use it for street use only, but if you want to track the car, be prepared to invest some more money.

Rob.

[theob]

Originally Posted by robains

theob,

You are correct, other manufacturers do the same -- but that still doesn't make a wrong a right. If Lotus or Ferrari or Nissan or Lamborghini aren't going to standby/support a feature THEY provided, then don't provide it. As Nissan have learned, in doing so it just generates bad press, bad feelings from customers, and a lot of legal battles etc. etc.

I'm not trying to be a downer on Lotus, but my Exige S WAS the least track worthy car (out of the box) that I've ever purchased. Sure the CUP (track only) variants do address the obvious issues with air charge temps, oil pressure, and fuel starvation so I can see this as the "up sell" - but they're not US street legal.

IMHO, Lotus NEED to step up to the plate and provide the following in their street legal cars:

1. Provide a fuel slosh solution
2. Provide oil pressure solution (this might be address now with Accusump in S260)
3. Provide SC air charge temp solution

These are the basics that are considerably more important the adding expensive carbon fiber parts. Get the car on a solid foundation before starting in on gloss and glitter. Don't get me wrong, I love gloss and glitter just as much as next person, but Lotus has gotta get the foundation squared away for their street cars (without it being track only car).

I still think it's a great car for those planning to use it for street use only, but if you want to track the car, be prepared to invest some more money.

Rob.

I can't say that the disclaimer about the transmission and its LC "feature" doesn't bother me. On the contrary. I don't like it at all, and wished it never existed so I could even try to launch my forthcoming Exige to the moon!

Joking apart however, I can see where this "protective" action comes from.

The engine and the transmission are really Toyota stock parts for a car that was never meant to get raced "as is", nor to get a SC giving out 260 ponies on the road with considerably more torque to stress the transmission cogs, and pinion, etc. The transmission proves to be the weakest link of the engine "bundle" and has the tendency to "evaporate" if it's treated with a hefty bunch of torque beyond a limit.

So, I cannot make a direct comparison of a stock Exige S with any type of cars like the aforementioned GT-R. Do you really imagine what would happen if the GT-R had a stock transmission of a Nissan Primera? Obviously, it would automatically become the joke of the auto industry.

What has Lotus succeeded in, is the very fact that it managed to get stock parts right out of another manufacturer's shelf, combine them with a ultra-light high-tech chassis, and with the assistance of its excellent vehicle dynamics know-how get a car that talks through its chassis dynamics directly to your heart!

We all know by now, that any attempt to make the car (Elise/Exige) more track-focused, is easy to perform! (to be street legal in the US is unfortunately a completely different story).

Lotus Sport, for example can be immediately contacted and provide you with all the answer you may need in order to make the car work as good and reliable as possible, and as much as its stock internals may allow. Even from then on, they are willing to consult you about any further enhancement/improvement on its internals. Since they've run the Exige on many championships, I guess they can give us their lights on this issue!

There are many Lotus Sport parts, as well as from other tuners, that can make an astonishing Lotus on track.

The Accusump is provided by Lotus Sportsince the first Cup cars were delivered by Lotus Sport itself to its customers.

Dual oil coolers were a std feature on Exiges, whereas Water Oil Coolers are a common find among many track-focused Elises/Exiges, even since the Mark I Elises and Exiges.

The new Exige 260 not only has bigger injectors but also an upgraded fuel pump, while for this car they can give us an even better IC to bring IAT even lower. Having talked with them directly about the CC solutions existing around the tuners' globe, they replied that they've used such a solution not neceserily for IAT, but to take off the roof scoop and streamline the car's aerodynamics a bit.

Manifolds, exhaust pipes, gearboxes (this seems good but apart from being very expensive, it's really only for track use... ) and many many more parts are here to enhance our cars' performance and reliability.

I perfectly understand your view Rob, and believe that the Elise/Exige is the type of cars engineered to be the perfect toy for all the "boys" around this planet. Lotus warns us though that some parts of it are stock parts from other car manufacturer and as such, we may need to invest some extra money to make this car truly exceptional in the long run.

Theo

[robains]

Theo,

None of the items I listed would prevent the car from being US road legal and are considerably more important to the cars reliability than tossing some carbon fiber at it. Does Toyota own Lotus? No they don't, the motor Lotus elected to use IS their responsibility, just as it will be in the Evora.

But the "if you use Launch control your warranty is void" is just silly -- I can see the Lawyers lining up right now to take the cases -- especially for a $75K car.

The Lotus chassis/body is engineered just fine, no issues with that at all. The engine is the weakness, and that's what needs to be addressed as #1 priority IMHO, not bigger brakes, not carbon fiber, not a bigger roof scoop, not lighter IC tubes. If they've increased injector size and fuel pump capacity but have not address fuel slosh problems, then that's only going to exaggerate the fuel starve problems. Lotus have solutions, why not put them on??

Lotus can do all this and still retain a street legal car. Drop in better valves/springs so that the engine can safely rev to 8,500 vs. Toyota's 7,800 rpm. Drop in water/air charge IC. Put in the fuel safe cell that meets CARB standards (they do exist - our toyota Prius has one). Nothing here is preventing the car from being US road legal.

[shay2nak]

nice to see the dyno comparison in that PDF.

[theob]

Rob,

Until I read your last msg, I thought the discussion was about how to make a current Lotus more powerful but still reliable; plus a LC warranty-proof transmission.

If we switch our talk to how to make a hardcore Elise/Exige road legal in the States, please allow me to plead ignorant about the "small letters" allowing a Cup-packed Lotus to be one!

Could there be a case where some Lotus sportmen found around our forums, could set up a track pack (US road legal too! that we could ask Lotus Sport to provide us as an option called for example : Super Cup Pack.

I guess we already know most of the needed parts, and only some minor yet significant addition have to made in order to have a nice package to ask them for!

btw, they already have an upgrade pack derived from their GT4 cars!...

[robains]

Theob,

Lotus offer something called a "track package" on their street legal US cars (that's what I purchased) -- now how is one really supposed to interpret that??

[MTribe]

Does anyone know if alternative motors other than the K20 have been put in these? Is a BMW S54 too big?

I view the base elise as a world-class chassis with stellar engineering, and a steal at $40k (at least at introduction and decent exchange rates). I wouldn't be able to own one if that wasn't he case, so for me the recipe is spot-on. And the higher-end S240 as the same chassis with better suspension and more highly tuned motor--but it's still the same motor for almost twice the price.

What I'd like to see is a $40k "sport" model with all the great engineering and worthy drivetrain for occasional track days, and then a $100k "track" elise with a BMW S54 or the like to eat much more expensive cars for lunch.

Rob, I've enjoyed hearing about your trials and tribuluations with the 2ZZ as painful as they've been... you're hard core enough on the track, though, (2:02 at thunderhill.. nice!) that I'd love to see how a more tuned/durable engine would work for you as a package. Have you considered a K20 swap, or something else?

[robains]

MTribe,

Think you hit the nail on the head, if a track/street car is one's goal (and I'm not suggesting that it should be) get the cheapest base Elise and drop $11K-20K into it to make it a track reliable monster.

TVS blower + EFI = $5000
Nitron GT3 shocks/srings = $4000
Fuel slosh solutions = $600-$800
Canton Oil pan or Accusump = $500
Nitride coat SS valves = $300
Mahle Pistons = $600
Labor = $0 - $8000
-----------------------------------------
Total without labor: $11200
Total with labor: $19200

Base Elise is $47600 - so even with Labor included you're at $66,800 - sure no warranty, but does that matter considering Lotus "out clause" listed in the S260 PDF? This gets you in a car with 260-280 wHP (well more than the S260) and is gonna be track worthy (which the S260 isn't).

Now don't get me wrong, the S260 is a great looking car (and I'm one of the few that seems to like the 2010) and if someone just wants a nice fun street car to drive and doesn't care or ever want to take it to the track and is OK with warranty terms, it makes sense.

What I really don't get is why sell a "Track Package" that really is NOT a track package -- And for the most part violates the warranty if you do take the thing to the track -- just makes NO sense. Is Lotus really that worried about people not buying the higher priced Cup cars if they make a street car that is truly track capable?

Rob

[MTribe]

Originally Posted by robains

MTribe,

What I really don't get is why sell a "Track Package" that really is NOT a track package -- And for the most part violates the warranty if you do take the thing to the track -- just makes NO sense. Is Lotus really that worried about people not buying the higher priced Cup cars if they make a street car that is truly track capable?

Regarding the warranty, I hate to state the obvious, but this is 100% a CYA thing. Yes, it's stupid from a user perspective. My Lotus Sport Elise, which came with Ohlins dual-adjustable dampers, a harness bar, and SRF fluid came with a manual (same as every other elise), IIRC, that says the car is not designed for track use, and driving on track may void the warranty. The press release itself said "For drivers who like to enjoy their Lotus on the track..."

Lotus knows you're going to drive the car on the track, every review you read is testing the car on a track, the Lotus web site shows cars driving on tracks, etc. They're obviously designed for "that" from the ground up. I think we're not acknowledging the variability in what "that" is. My guess is that the accumulated stress placed on the car with an intermediate driver tracking a few days/year is 1/4 or less the amount of stress and wear on components of a car tracked by an advanced driver, on hoosiers, several times a month.

In the latter case, you basically have a race car. In Lotus' defense, if they tried to meet user expectations on warranty on par with a Toyota Corolla for a race car, they'd go out of business.

If you agree with that, then unfortunately it's difficult from Lotus' perspective to quantify different grades of use. My sense is they handle it case-by-case. I haven't yet heard of them voiding a warranty for having taken your car to a few HPDEs, but I'd guess if you came in with hoosiers, sponsor stickers, and said you were a professional driver, they'd raise it as an issue. They need that fallback to protect themselves from trying to warranty a race car and going out of business.

Despite the frustration of saying "here's a feature, if you use it it voids the warranty" (as is the case for launch control?), I'm actually quite happy with the way Lotus handles all this. I'd much rather have them innovate with their chassis to the point that it *does* make a great race car, and provide features like launch control if you want to use them, and let you decide how hard you want to push it, than have Legal stop production of anything that can't be warrantied like a Toyota Corolla. They're not recommending you push your components to the limits of their physical properties, but amazingly, they still give you the choice to do it if you want to.

With launch control specifically, just like the rest of the car, we're looking at accumulated stress over time. Will components like clutch and transmission survive one launch? Absolutely. Five? Sure. 10? Yeah. 20? 100? 1000? Definitely not. I think some cars record how many times launch control is used and you get up to 10 uses before it voids the warranty? Seems like a decent compromise.

Anyhow, I feel fortunate companies like Lotus are out there innovating as much as they are, and offering products we can buy that are so insanely cool. And cost way less than starting from scratch in our garages. I'm not saying any product is ever perfect, for sure. But how much of a shame would it be if Lotus stopped pushing the performance envelope, innovating with their chassis, having names like Track Pack, selling cars with harness bars, or showing cars on the track on their web site, as a result of rigid user expectations of what should be warranted and what shouldn't?

And I haven't even gotten into how hard it is to make a product profitably with all the testing, iteration, regulatory, etc., even for a product devoid of any innovation and not subject to the incredibly high expectations we have for cars nowadays...

[robains]

MTribe,

CYA, absolutely agree.

Race car, no, not even close -- I've had race cars and I've raced -- worlds apart than just having a reliable street/track car.

No doubt, chassis is awesome, Kudos to Lotus, size, shell, everything is excellent. I could even live with the super soft springs in the "Track package", but the weakness of the motor and fuel slosh (under Lotus's own rev limits and SC boost levels) is the real issue I have.

Like I said before, I've had plenty of track/street cars that I can slap hoosiers on and go track it without worry. Not so in the Lotus.

The fuel slosh problem can even happen in street situations on 888's or A048s -- that's just not acceptable especially considering it's potential for engine damage -- maybe Lotus added a fuel pressure sensor after 07, but I haven't seen that mentioned -- if they did at least it could offer some engine protection.

If Lotus want CYA, then they better introduce a real solution to the fuel slosh issue cause "you were driving the car with only 1/2 a tank of fuel" isn't gonna fly in any warranty claim court.

Lotus have race cars, I'm not really talking about their race cars (sure no warranty, expect that). I'm talking about a track/street car. Lotus say rev limit is 8,500, Toyota say 7,800 and I say -- huh?? Lotus use EFi Italia to produce an ECU that magically permits 700 rpm higher without changing any of the internal parts -- sorry, but that's just insane.

Sure my view is jaded because of my multiple engine failures, Engine #1 was combination of higher boost and fuel slosh. Enigne #2 was valve tip breaking above 7800 rpm. Engine #3 - who knows, maybe it'll survive or maybe I'll just expose yet another weak spot. Am I pessimistic, yes I am. But as far as I can see neither of these problems is addressed in the S260. And what's Lotus's response, "we don't see an unusual number of warranty claims" -- well yeah, of course they don't, because the warranty is void as soon as anyone puts a foot on track.

I'm harping on about this to HELP Lotus sales, not to hurt them. If Lotus want CYA, no problem, do the CYA thing, but please please please, just give their customers a street legal car that is reliable on track.

#1 fix fuel slosh problem
#2 either drop rev limit to 7,800 or upgrade the valves

Is that really such a hard thing to ask for? I certainly think it's a lot more important than tossing carbon fiber stuff at it.

Rob.

[STL Motorsports]

Hello all ! well, It is here...The 2009 Chrome Orange Exige 260-S that is , came off the truck this morning and it is just brilliant, the seats are incredible...the whole car far exceeds the pictures. This is a serious piece of kit..right down to a tiny lightweight battery, real harness point racing seats, carbon fibre Lotus made seat shells,I could go on but it's all been covered on this thread. 1 0F 50 ...Lotus Greenville sold theirs 20 Hours off the truck so contact me to secure it.


So, Anyway, I'll be on our Lotus Tech first thing Monday to get the P.D.I done and of course I'll do a quick lap myself 'just in the interest of quality control' you understand !


THE M.S.R.P IS $ 78,315 and as of right now ( Saturday March 28th ) You can buy it !


Cheers...Adrian Hill @ Lotus St. Louis ~ 636-449-0000
adrian@bentleystl.com

[theob]

Originally Posted by robains

#1 fix fuel slosh problem
#2 either drop rev limit to 7,800 or upgrade the valves

Rob,
Would you feel ok if we could get an answer from within Lotus Sport regarding the two aforementioned "problematic" areas?

I'll try to get an answer through the contact I have in the factory and get back to the thread with their replies, own experiences, proposed solutions, and relative costs!

Cheers,

Theo