Question about track oil starvation

[Cooper Brown]

Hey all,

I hear about oil starvation on the track with the Lotus and I was wondering how this can affect the '08 Exige with little to moderate track use. I have had mine at the track only twice and I was a little concerned about it because of what I've read on this site. I can see how that would be a concern but would'nt the two oil coolers help prevent that?

Should I be worried about this causing damage to my car in the future? I'm not a big time racer but next year I am hoping to get a bit more use on the track. Maybe 5 days and some Friday night auto crossing.

I've heard about the Moroso oil pan but is that really necessary?

Any two bits would really help.

Thanks

[apk919]

Originally Posted by Cooper Brown

Hey all,

I hear about oil starvation on the track with the Lotus and I was wondering how this can affect the '08 Exige with little to moderate track use. I have had mine at the track only twice and I was a little concerned about it because of what I've read on this site. I can see how that would be a concern but would'nt the two oil coolers help prevent that?

Should I be worried about this causing damage to my car in the future? I'm not a big time racer but next year I am hoping to get a bit more use on the track. Maybe 5 days and some Friday night auto crossing.

I've heard about the Moroso oil pan but is that really necessary?

Any two bits would really help.

Thanks

The oil coolers don't help with oil starvation at all. The problem occurs during high-G (i.e. > 1G) activities that cause the oil in the pan to be forced away from the oil pump pickup, leading to either a loss of pressure or cavitation of the oil pump. Even a short loss of oil pressure can be fatal to the 2ZZ engine.

Baffled sumps (like the Moroso) use baffles (essentially small hinged trap doors) to prevent large amounts of oil from being forced away from the pickup.

Lotus uses an Accusump (a pressurized oil reservoir) to mitigate this problem on their dedicated track cars.

[JLSELISE]

The number of oil coolers you have is irrelevant to this problem. It is a result of sustaining relatively long periods of high lateral Gs, and it is especially aggravated by running track events aggressively using very sticky street tires or racing slicks. Others can comment on the most effective fix.

[Cooper Brown]

Ok so the oil coolers are irrelevant, thats good to know but is the '08 Exige use the Accusump and should I not be too concerned?

[apk919]

Originally Posted by Cooper Brown

Ok so the oil coolers are irrelevant, thats good to know but is the '08 Exige use the Accusump and should I not be too concerned?

I believe that the consensus opinion is that a baffled oil pan is an overall better solution... it's lighter, simpler, doesn't take up any boot space.

[Cooper Brown]

Ok so if I were to change the pan then it is just the pan alone, I dont need to change anything else except the gasket. Is that correct?

[apk919]

Originally Posted by Cooper Brown

Ok so if I were to change the pan then it is just the pan alone, I dont need to change anything else except the gasket. Is that correct?

Yes, and you don't need a gasket. A high temperature sealant is used (i.e. Toyota FIPG or Hondabond) without a gasket.

[ZTEC]

I agree with the advise given from apk919, All my research has pointed to the Pan being the best all around insurance policy you can get for Oil Starvation on the track! As my car and myself get faster, the Pan is now on my list of "Wants" as soon as finances permit I personally don't know anybody that has suffered from the starvation issue but, I am sure there are some owners that do.

[Cooper Brown]

Thats great info, thanks for that. I dont want to cause any internal problems due to ignorance on my behalf. Thanks again!

[38bfast]

I have data logged stock, w/Acusump and w/Morosso pan.

The data has shown it is not just sustained high G turns that causes oil pressure spikes. Quick transitions from left to right to left will cause a considerable spike (I have seen as low as 18lbs spikes)

The data with the stock pan is downright scary. Many spikes on track at very low pressures at WOT.

The Acusump shows a slight improvement over the stock pan but not much in my testing. It took a spike of 18Lbs and kept it to 24Lbs. I have hypothesized that the length of oil line to the Acusump has a large play on this. Although I have not tested my theory.

The Morosso pan has shown the best results of what I have tested. The lowest spike I have seen in down to 28Lbs.

Just a note with the cars I have tested they seem to like about 50lbs in a static state at WOT.

My conclusion is that we still need to find a better solution to the problem.

[JLSELISE]

As a general rule, oil pressure will vary with engine rpm, but should be pretty much independent of throttle position.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by apk919

I believe that the consensus opinion is that a baffled oil pan is an overall better solution... it's lighter, simpler, doesn't take up any boot space.

Originally Posted by ZTEC

I agree with the advise given from apk919, All my research has pointed to the Pan being the best all around insurance policy you can get for Oil Starvation on the track! As my car and myself get faster, the Pan is now on my list of "Wants" as soon as finances permit I personally don't know anybody that has suffered from the starvation issue but, I am sure there are some owners that do.

"Consensus opinion"..."research" (from what sources)...sounds like drivel spewed form the Al Gore camp I can’t help myself on no-brainer digressions like that!

Originally Posted by 38bfast

I have data logged stock, w/Acusump and w/Morosso pan.

The data has shown it is not just sustained high G turns that causes oil pressure spikes. Quick transitions from left to right to left will cause a considerable spike (I have seen as low as 18lbs spikes)

The data with the stock pan is downright scary. Many spikes on track at very low pressures at WOT.

The Acusump shows a slight improvement over the stock pan but not much in my testing. It took a spike of 18Lbs and kept it to 24Lbs. I have hypothesized that the length of oil line to the Acusump has a large play on this. Although I have not tested my theory.

The Morosso pan has shown the best results of what I have tested. The lowest spike I have seen in down to 28Lbs.

Just a note with the cars I have tested they seem to like about 50lbs in a static state at WOT.

My conclusion is that we still need to find a better solution to the problem.

Forget opinions; go with facts. I' have both an Accusump and Moroso pan and I see oil pressure in turns drop below 30. How low I don't know because I am concentrating on keeping my car on track. I only know it drops below 30 because of my dash alarm. (When I do glance at the dash alarm I think it reads around 28 psi.)

We do indeed need a better solution.

[Certified Lotus]

I also use both an Acusump and Morroso Oil pan......and see oil pressure drop under hard use at the track. Not sure what else can be done except dry sump and that gets expensive.

[JLSELISE]

AFAIK, as long as oil--and not air--is being delivered to the bearings there should be little to worry about. In other words, minor, transient pressure fluctuations are less important than having the system run dry when it comes to the function of the bearings and their lives.

Some of the discussion here might be relevant:
Hydrodynamic Bearings, by EPI Inc.

where you can see, for example, that local hydrodynamic film pressure can be orders of magnitude higher than oil supply pressure suggesting that bearing function will be OK as long as that oil film is present.

[kmt63]

well its looking like there is a need for a cost effective dry sump.i brought up an old thread awhile ago to gauge interest.but there was not much.well im feeling that we might as well build one and see how it goes.my car needs one anyway.my friend and partner in many projects is a dry sump engineer.he has recently built 3 different systems and this would be a simple one to pull off.

[turbophil]

THe stock pump has cavitation issues at RPM as well... I think we're all just coming to to the same problems that just about everyone does when converting an OEM to a track car...

A hybrid wet/sump type system would be cool... Use an external roots oil pump and put a pickup on the bottom of the trap door section of something like the moroso pan. Remove the stock oil pump. Run the roots pump to the sandwich plate and you're basically done. Take it a step further and use a 3 stage roots pump with two scavengers. Seal the worthless PCV system and stock vent up and run a vacuumed crank... I spoke with Daily about this in depth. Could all be built for somewhere less than 2,000 I figure... still not dry sump. I priced the dry our and it came to 5-6K... I think the hybrid would be a better route for the track weekend Wally, IMO...

[holmz]

Originally Posted by turbophil

THe stock pump has cavitation issues at RPM as well... I think we're all just coming to to the same problems that just about everyone does when converting an OEM to a track car...

A hybrid wet/sump type system would be cool... Use an external roots oil pump and put a pickup on the bottom of the trap door section of something like the moroso pan. Remove the stock oil pump. Run the roots pump to the sandwich plate and you're basically done. Take it a step further and use a 3 stage roots pump with two scavengers. Seal the worthless PCV system and stock vent up and run a vacuumed crank... I spoke with Daily about this in depth. Could all be built for somewhere less than 2,000 I figure... still not dry sump. I priced the dry our and it came to 5-6K... I think the hybrid would be a better route for the track weekend Wally, IMO...

Tell me about a vacuumed crank (case).
I have thought about that - but have not heard one ever mentioned until now.

[Cooper Brown]

Wow, I never new this was such a concern. I'm glad I asked. So basically if I were to track the car the most reasonable thing to do is change the oil pan and stay with a good grade synthetic oil and hope for the best.

I like what Turbophil has to say, it makes alot of sense but I'm no where near that level of expertise or competitive professionalism so I'll stick to whats within my means.

Lotus uses Mobil 1 when they changed my oil, is there something you folks prefer more that does a better job or are we safe with that brand?

[kmt63]

what if there was a dry sump system selling for around 2500.00?this is what i meant when i said cost effective.if that is still too much.then one of the hybrid solutions would be the next step.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by kmt63

what if there was a dry sump system selling for around 2500.00?this is what i meant when i said cost effective.if that is still too much.then one of the hybrid solutions would be the next step.

You've got my attention

... To be honest, it would really depend, as the hybrid I was talking about would be a really good solution and is doable for 2,000 if a fella already has a moroso pan and some fab skills (or access to someone that does)

So depend on what?

On:

-What pumps and type of pumps are used
-Where the holding tank would sit and the design of the tank
-The location of the pump (delete the AC?)
-Would it include scavenging pumps or just pressure pump. If scavenging, how much vacuum could we expect to draw? 10-20in/hg?

In otherwords, if you could put a good quality multistage pump together with a well designed tank and dry pan, complete with fittings and hose for $2500 (a true Dry sump) not only would I buy one, but I'd shake your hand for the effort and working for free

Seriously though. Is this something you think you can pull off?

Best,

Phil