Really Light Stuff Intercooler

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by charliex

would you like me to include some smiley emoticons ?

[CUP_240]

Sorry to intrude on your thread Thomasio...

CHARLIE X can you please PM me ASAP need you to flash a ecu for me urgently and have no idea how to get in contact with you..

Thanks very much
Ant

[Thomasio]

Re: pulleys,tunes, etc.

Just because my car is responding well to the undersized pulley doesn't mean that your car will... there are tons of variables, and we have all heard the horror stories of people destroying engines.

An undersized pulley along with the proper tune would be far safer than using an undersized pulley with your stock ECU tune.

CharlieX's warnings shouldn't be ignored: adding boost without other changes is pushing the envelope, and in some cases tearing the envelope.

There are other ways to make power...

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by CUP_240

Sorry to intrude on your thread Thomasio...

No worries... I've dispached a squadron of pigeons to your location.

[Lotusflower]

please tell me where I would be able to get this item. I have recently supercharged my '06 Exige. 1/2 of everybody tells me no intercooler needed, but the car is a track exclusive car and I live in Las vegas. So, I don't want to take the chance on blowing up my motor. Thank you
Kelley

[Pestodude]

Thomasio, Are the RLS tubes still available?

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Pestodude

Thomasio, Are the RLS tubes still available?

Yes, the tubes are available from Blackwatch, FVMC, or myself. Most of them are in stock, and I have one set of gunmetal gray (normally special order only) in stock.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Lotusflower

please tell me where I would be able to get this item. I have recently supercharged my '06 Exige. 1/2 of everybody tells me no intercooler needed, but the car is a track exclusive car and I live in Las vegas. So, I don't want to take the chance on blowing up my motor. Thank you
Kelley

Kelley - you can order from Blackwatch, FVMC, or myself.

[Pestodude]

Originally Posted by Thomasio

Yes, the tubes are available from Blackwatch, FVMC, or myself. Most of them are in stock, and I have one set of gunmetal gray (normally special order only) in stock.

Any price difference between the three options?

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Lotusflower

please tell me where I would be able to get this item. I have recently supercharged my '06 Exige. 1/2 of everybody tells me no intercooler needed, but the car is a track exclusive car and I live in Las vegas. So, I don't want to take the chance on blowing up my motor. Thank you
Kelley

Kelley,

This is not a bolt-on option for your S/C setup -- some customizing will be required. Your best bet is to contact Paladin and see what is needed to add an intercooler, which I think would be a great idea given your extensive track usage.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Pestodude

Any price difference between the three options?

In theory, no, but I have heard that Blackwatch knocks a few dollars off to spite me.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Lotusflower

please tell me where I would be able to get this item. I have recently supercharged my '06 Exige. 1/2 of everybody tells me no intercooler needed, but the car is a track exclusive car and I live in Las vegas. So, I don't want to take the chance on blowing up my motor. Thank you
Kelley

K-

You really do not need an IC even for a track only car with the stock Sc tunes. They are quite conservative and to-date, I know of Zero blown engines with the Katana tune provided the user followed the instructions, i.e. leaving the intake and pulley stock... If you're wanting more power, then go for the IC---but you'll need the ability to tune to get the power that an IC can afford you...

One option would be to do one of the one-off IC projects (no 'kits' really available yet, but the project is easy enough to do) and then perhaps Chuck would throw a Gotham tune on your car (if that's doable, CX???), otherwise, your looking at EFI or similar...

Again, all that only needed if you want more power

Best,

Phil

[Jack]

Originally Posted by turbophil

K-

You really do not need an IC even for a track only car with the stock Sc tunes. They are quite conservative and to-date, I know of Zero blown engines with the Katana tune provided the user followed the instructions, i.e. leaving the intake and pulley stock... If you're wanting more power, then go for the IC---but you'll need the ability to tune to get the power that an IC can afford you...

One option would be to do one of the one-off IC projects (no 'kits' really available yet, but the project is easy enough to do) and then perhaps Chuck would throw a Gotham tune on your car (if that's doable, CX???), otherwise, your looking at EFI or similar...

Again, all that only needed if you want more power

Best,

Phil

Phil,

I think Kelley is wise to look into intercooler options. Power is significantly down at the track on HOT days (100+ degrees) with that non-intercooled s/c setup....an intercooler would definitley help some. With all due respect, there's the "no blown engine" red herring lament and then there are real world significant track usage "engine issues". An intercooler will always give you an extra margin of safety/reliability. I wouldn't do heavy duty tracking without one (that's almost exclusively how she uses her Exige).

Just my 2 cents and probably worth less to many.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Jack

An intercooler will always give you an extra margin of safety/reliability.

Amen to that. Heat is the enemy, both to power and to reliability.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Jack

Phil,

I think Kelley is wise to look into intercooler options. Power is significantly down at the track on HOT days (100+ degrees) with that non-intercooled s/c setup....an intercooler would definitley help some. With all due respect, there's the "no blown engine" red herring lament and then there are real world significant track usage "engine issues". An intercooler will always give you an extra margin of safety/reliability. I wouldn't do heavy duty tracking without one (that's almost exclusively how she uses her Exige).

Just my 2 cents and probably worth less to many.

No argument from me, my friend. I loathe the idea of an IC as well. Perhaps before too long...

We have Uber hot track days and that's pretty much all I do with my car as well, track it. Peak intake temps while on the power get as high as 235-240F on 100 air temp days. On 80 degree air temp days, the blown air still gets to about 230. We were doing 30 minute sessions the other day with 100 degree air, and 100% heat soak happens by the second lap- Intake temps table-top after that. The conclusion I draw from this is that whether heavily tracked or lightly tracked, if we're certain that no damage is being done to a hotair SC'ed car by the second lap, then it should follow that no damage is being done to the car by the last lap either since the temps don't really get any higher. So my response was driven toward the "I don't want to blow my motor" comment in particular in that hot-air cars are perfectly safe whether tracked for 5 minute runs or 30 minute runs... provided the tune is sound... and I think that has been fairly well established as long as the rules are followed (stock intake track)...

Regarding getting more power out of an IC, it really boils down to the tune and the pulley. Let's say we add a 50% efficient air to air IC to the car. Temps would drop from, say 240 to 170 and the pressure drop may be 2 psi. If the tune and pulley were unchanged is it reasonable to think that the drop in temp would sufficiently offset the power loss due to the pressure drop (forget the increase in weight that so many are concerned about??? There's no doubt that the hot air cars run harder when intake temps are sub 200 at full boost. Lop 2 psi out of the equation, and I'm not sure the same would be true

Now, Charlie has indicated that one on the main drivers behind the tunes leaning out with higher boost/smaller pulleys is due to the decreased pressure differential at the injector head... Perhaps one could drop the pulley size to bring the pressure *back up to stock spec* compensating for the pressure drop and perhaps that would still be OK on the Katana tune since the injector head pressure would be close to the same as it was prior to adding the IC and then folks would have a safe way to get more power out of the existing kits? All theory but may be worth a try??? My final rambling thought is that perhaps Chuck has a 06 flash to work with this new IC'ed kit that supposed to be coming out that he would flash K's car with. Then, jsut get some S manifolds, T's IC, a smaller pulley, Chuck's IC flash and call it done

In summary, all the above questions are why I jumped on the "just run what ya got" bandwagon with K... Right, wrong, or indifferent, I hate to see someone just throw money at a problem that may not be a problem at all. THere are weirdos like me and a few others that get our kicks out of just trying new stuff for kicks, but I doubt that works for most...

Sorry for the threadjack T....

Best,

Phil

[Jack]

Hi Phil,

Appreciate all your points.... and...what's a little 'threadjack' .... my take is that while the motor hasn't "blown up" by the second lap or the last run session of the day for that matter, you are stressing the engine more w/o having the I/C; and, IMHO, on a cumulative basis, you're more likely to see " engine issues/problems" earlier w/o the I/C.

Also, the Ronin/Greddy/Katana setup is boosting more than the factory intercooled setup....more heat/wear etc. I'd want an I/C on any forced induction car (forget about a smaller pulley or trying to tune for more than a particular system's rated power)... for track duty, I think it's essential.

I've said this before... the jury is still out on how long these stock Toyota lumps with 11.5:1 compression can withstand being boosted, whether it's 5.7 PSI from the factory (with I/C) or 8 PSI aftermarket w/o I/C. We'll see... IMHO, there's been insufficient time on, and too small a population sample with, the S/C setups to really draw any firm conclusions regarding their long-term viability.

[turbophil]

Ya, I think your last point hit the nail on the head. I'm not quite sold that the hot air is the villian. It's the cylinder pressures and detonation that's tough on the engine. If we're not detonating, then additional "safety" is like wearing two seat belts, two helmets, or taking two Viagra, when only one is needed...again if we're not detonating....and I haven't seen signs that the stock Katana detonates...

To your point, the cylinder pressures, subsequent blow-by (causes scuffing), and load on the piston ring lands, bearings, and heads are the big issue here. All of which are unrelated to intake temps. Based on my last bout with a valve stem breaking off for no real good reason, and the many other items that seem to break on thse engines (majority are head and piston realted), I'm not 100% certain that we're not exceeding usage expectations that Yamaha had intended for the lump... GT-S's simply don't get the beating that we dish out, IMO. The engine was likely designed for more pedestrian usage- unfortunately...

Given this whole IC issue, whether it be after market or converting the Katanas to cool air, I think the desired result from the ICs should be more power rather than adding safety ( back to example above). Safety should be moot if we not detonating and is likely more directly related to the integrity of the engine itself, not the charge temps---again provided that we're not detonating...

Jack, I sure wish we could grab a beer together. Perhaps next time I'm CA

T- Jack is right, this is a good threadjack ,so I'm withdrawing my apology for said threadjack

Best,

Phil

Originally Posted by Jack

Hi Phil,

Appreciate all your points.... and...what's a little 'threadjack' .... my take is that while the motor hasn't "blown up" by the second lap or the last run session of the day for that matter, you are stressing the engine more w/o having the I/C; and, IMHO, on a cumulative basis, you're more likely to see " engine issues/problems" earlier w/o the I/C.

Also, the Ronin/Greddy/Katana setup is boosting more than the factory intercooled setup....more heat/wear etc. I'd want an I/C on any forced induction car (forget about a smaller pulley or trying to tune for more than a particular system's rated power)... for track duty, I think it's essential.

I've said this before... the jury is still out on how long these stock Toyota lumps with 11.5:1 compression can withstand being boosted, whether it's 5.7 PSI from the factory (with I/C) or 8 PSI aftermarket w/o I/C. We'll see... IMHO, there's been insufficient time on, and too small a population sample with, the S/C setups to really draw any firm conclusions regarding their long-term viability.

[dmh]

Turbo-
Just curious...what kind of lap times are you running at Heartland Park?

[turbophil]

Fiberglass friendly lower-mid 1:40s on the 2.5mile course... Obviously depends on what kind of traffic a guy runs into... There's time to be picked up with slicks and better shocks opposed to my RA-1s and LSS dampers... Oh yes, and more HP would be nice I may sell my unused 888s and go with slicks since I cart my RA1 tires to the track as it is...

There's 3 main configs on that course with the 2.5 mile config being full course that's ran at the SCCA runoffs.

Have you been up here before? It would be interesting to see a fella like yourself race on this track. I'm sure you've got several more seconds off on my times

Cheers,

Phil

[dmh]

Phil-

No, I haven't been there.

Do you have any video of a quick lap that you wouldn't mind sharing?