Really Light Stuff Intercooler

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Smoky

I would also want to get mine black anodized. Interested in this response.

In theory it might, but measurably it won't.

[ocelot27]

Originally Posted by dmh

If you were at my shop don't you think I would know it?

Your data is invalid because it is was not repeatable -- pull to pull.

Your IATs were way too low. What was it pull to pull? What was your oil temp? What was the torque on the tie down straps? Your tire pressure? Etc. Variables matter. Even more so on inertia style dynos.
Conflict? I don't sell intercoolers. And I'm trying to do business with RLS.

All of these type of intercoolers will heat soak. What is your point? Better yet, what was the point of your dyno pulls? Were you testing or tuning? Or simply seeing what your car made?

Hoping? Are you kidding Are you pointing to this by Thomasio? "That difference only gets greater with heat soak, because the stock intercooler heat soaks far worse and far faster. Results will be posted as soon as I get the data, that will show the trends better than I can describe. It was impressive."

I am all for helping but come on now...

I'm done with you. You don't know anything about how the test was performed and it's the change in WHP over a short period of time on the same dyno under the same conditions that's relevant - if you fail to understand that I don't see this dispute progressing to mutual understanding.

You use the fact that you own a tuning shop to give you credibility but I suspect your motive is disputing the effectiveness of the RLS intercooler - mark my words and time will prove me right on this - planning a competing product are we??? The point was not to measure WHP accurately - the point was TO SHOW HEAT SOAK OF THE FACTORY COOLER.

[xtn]

Confusion:

I understand the point being made about a higher mass will allow the unit to absorb a given amount of energy while maintaining a relatively lower temperature. So while sitting at a stop light the IAT won't rise as much.

But once the throttle is opened, won't that same amount of heat energy be transferred back into the IA? At a slower rate of course, but the IAT is still raised, right? It's just a matter of it being raised to a lesser degree, but also taking longer to get back to baseline temp once you're rollling, right?

xtn

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by ocelot27

I can back up the shocking stock heat soak issue on my 08 S 240. It was jaw-dropping how fast the stock intercooler soaked - IAT rose to over 140°F and WHP dropped by about a wopping 25WHP during three quick pulls. We pointed a fan at the engine bay and got an extra 19 WHP out of the stock IC for a best of 218.11WHP. The stock IC sucks monkey balls - that's the bottom line. I can't wait to get my RLS IC installed...





- john.

Thanks for posting the dyno data from your 240 w/ stock intercooler.

This is very similar to the results that we recorded with the '07 Exige S w/ stock intercooler.

The facility that I used was a Dynapack chassis dynamometer.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by dmh

And I'm trying to do business with RLS.

And we are trying to do business with you. Resent that Paypal invoice, did you check your spam filter?

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by xtn

Confusion:

I understand the point being made about a higher mass will allow the unit to absorb a given amount of energy while maintaining a relatively lower temperature. So while sitting at a stop light the IAT won't rise as much.

But once the throttle is opened, won't that same amount of heat energy be transferred back into the IA? At a slower rate of course, but the IAT is still raised, right? It's just a matter of it being raised to a lesser degree, but also taking longer to get back to baseline temp once you're rollling, right?

xtn

The intercooler sheds heat to the ambient air faster than the oem intercooler... it's efficiency is a function of many factors including thermal capacitance, volume, bar and plate design, flow restriction, fin design, cross sectional area, end tank design, etc.

[xeeeejme]

Originally Posted by ocelot27

the point was TO SHOW HEAT SOAK OF THE FACTORY COOLER.

Better stated, your point was to show heat soak of the factory intercooler in a dyno environment. The rls intercooler might/should perform better in regards to heat soak on a dyno, but how about on the street or on the track? If somebody can show this and/or show some track time differences, that would be more relevant.

(cool link Don)

[vyuen]

Originally Posted by Thomasio

The intercooler sheds heat to the ambient air faster than the oem intercooler... it's efficiency is a function of many factors including thermal capacitance, volume, bar and plate design, flow restriction, fin design, cross sectional area, end tank design, etc.

Not to mention velocity of the air mass. If we can somehow think of a way to maintain airflow under all conditions it would improve the performance of the stock intercooler without having to change it.

[ocelot27]

I think it can be concluded that improvements in the absence of cool air flow in a dyno setting could only make the car that much better with cold air flowing over an even better IC? Lotus also pretty significantly changed the roof scoop on the 08's so they wanted to get more cool air to their IC for some reason.
-john.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by xeeeejme

Better stated, your point was to show heat soak of the factory intercooler in a dyno environment. The rls intercooler might/should perform better in regards to heat soak on a dyno, but how about on the street or on the track? If somebody can show this and/or show some track time differences, that would be more relevant.

(cool link Don)

Better yet...your point was to show heat soak of the factory intercooler in a dyno environment a without intercooler fan setup and logging eqipment so the dyno operator could make some money.

[dmh]

Originally Posted by ocelot27

I think it can be concluded that improvements in the absence of cool air flow in a dyno setting could only make the car that much better with cold air flowing over an even better IC? Lotus also pretty significantly changed the roof scoop on the 08's so they wanted to get more cool air to their IC for some reason.
-john.

Airflow issues have been known for some time now. Those roofs first appeared in 2006 both by Lotus and the aftermarket.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by vyuen

Not to mention velocity of the air mass. If we can somehow think of a way to maintain airflow under all conditions it would improve the performance of the stock intercooler without having to change it.

"Fettling" helps, as does seling the ABS-plastic duct to the header-panel opeing of the rear clam. Also, a proper seal between the roof panel and the header panel helps.

Moving the roof scoop opening to the high pressure area of the winshield helps too. All of these incremental improvements add up.

Airflow is certainly the weakest link.

[ocelot27]

Originally Posted by dmh

Airflow issues have been known for some time now. Those roofs first appeared in 2006 both by Lotus and the aftermarket.

Thanks for the update Don - I can read too. Must you try to insult me at every juncture? The design was changed for the PRODUCTION 08 Lotus Exige correct? I'm struggling really hard here to try to get you to be nice. Maybe you can agree on this: "the sky is sometimes blue"

Once again you've made claims about my data ("without proper data logging") without explaining yourself? I've asked you repeatedly to educate us all and tell us how you can tell from the plots exactly how the tests were performed and that the data is "invalid." Can't do it can you... that's what I thought.

Lastly, what's your motive for being so negative about all this?

-john.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by dmh

Better yet...your point was to show heat soak of the factory intercooler in a dyno environment a without intercooler fan setup and logging eqipment so the dyno operator could make some money.

Guys, we are all trying to solve the same problem, let's put our heads together.

It sounds like you have a very sophisticated dyno, we all will appreciate your data when it is available. Some of us are engineers, some of us are tuners, some of us have the best dynos, some of us have incredible knowledge of the inner workings of the ECU, some of us just have a lot of experience. We all learn from each other and come together to push the state of the art. (Lotus engineers watch the 3rd-party development here... we are actually helping Lotus improve future cars... that's pretty cool! )

Nobody is trying to trick anybody, we are all using the best science that we have available. The more input we have, the better.

The heat soak problem wasn't discovered on the dyno, it was discovered on the street and on the track. The dyno is simply one tool to approximate "real world" conditions. It is not good to draw broad conclusions from the dyno alone. That being said, results on the dyno can certainly be valuable ways to understand what is happening. Data logging is the other.

In the words of Rodney: "can't we all just get along?"

[Smoky]

Originally Posted by Thomasio

"Fettling" helps, as does seling the ABS-plastic duct to the header-panel opeing of the rear clam.

What do you mean by fettling? Fettling what?

And which plastic duct do you mean? The one going from the scoop to the i/c? Or some other duct? Do you have a pic of this work? Thx!

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by ocelot27

Thanks for the update Don - I can read too. Must you try to insult me at every juncture? The design was changed for the PRODUCTION 08 Lotus Exige correct? I'm struggling really hard here to try to get you to be nice. Maybe you can agree on this: "the sky is sometimes blue"

Once again you've made claims about my data ("without proper data logging") without explaining yourself? I've asked you repeatedly to educate us all and tell us how you can tell from the plots exactly how the tests were performed and that the data is "invalid." Can't do it can you... that's what I thought.

Lastly, what's your motive for being so negative about all this?

-john.

John and Don - I think you both have valuable data. Don - I get the impression that you are a perfectionist and a master of your trade, and that you are chomping at the bit to get some data using your methods - that's awesome, we can't wait... just go easy on those of us who don't have access to your pro motorsports facilities. We all want to see what you come up with, we are doing the best that we can with the resources that we have.

Nobody is claiming that the rls Intercooler is the *best* solution that will ever be created. It is *a* solution. Your testing will show us how good it is in real-world track conditions. My testing shows dyno and street conditions.

This is great R&D, and it is exciting to be a part of it.

[ocelot27]

Originally Posted by dmh

Better yet...your point was to show heat soak of the factory intercooler in a dyno environment a without intercooler fan setup and logging eqipment so the dyno operator could make some money.

So your fan set up exactly replicates the volume of air through the duct dynamically with changing wheel speed right? Furthermore this volume is the same as what the cars duct collects in a driving situation right? So you must have a pretty fancy wind tunnel at your shop? Since your being so picky about dyno setups I'm going to pick yours apart. Obviously your fans don't do this so all of your data must be invalid too, correct? Wasn't it you who said:

"Similar conditions? Controlling all the variables -- are you sure? For if just one is off the data is invalid. Just one! Did you read the short essays on the web page? And if so, did you understand them? "

Did YOU read them and did YOU understand them?

-john.

[Thomasio]

Originally Posted by Smoky

What do you mean by fettling? Fettling what?

And which plastic duct do you mean? The one going from the scoop to the i/c? Or some other duct? Do you have a pic of this work? Thx!

If you do a search on Lotus Talk for "fettling" you will find some good tutorials. I do have pictures but can't post them now - I'm out of town. Basically, "fettling" is grinding away the edges of the duct openings that restrict airflow.

When you remove the roof panel, and look from the passenger cabin toward the rear of the car, you will see the opening at what I'm calling the header-panel. (The part between the roof panel and the engine bay cover.)

Inside of the opening in the header-panel, you will see the black plastic ABS (acrylonitrilebutadienestyrene) duct. Look closely, and you will see that it is not sealed to the header-panel / rear clamshell, around the permimeter. You will see a large gap, perhaps 1/8" to 1/4", around the perimeter. Fill this in smoothly with silicone (black or clear).

This will prevent some of your fresh air from spilling out around and in between the ABS-plastic duct and the header panel opening.

[ocelot27]

Originally Posted by Smoky

What do you mean by fettling? Fettling what?

And which plastic duct do you mean? The one going from the scoop to the i/c? Or some other duct? Do you have a pic of this work? Thx!

Where the roof meets the rear clam. Take the roof off and look at the duct - it's about 30% occluded by a lip in the rear clam - you just grind this off with a dremel. I recommend having a friend hold a vacuum cleaner close to the bit - this will collect almost all of the dust.

-john.

[twaszak1]

thomas in my opinion your doing a wonderful job.
and i know as soon as you get the graphs and data logging info you will post them.

i am not trying to be rude, i just wish if the 2 parties arguing would start there own thread to do so, it would help us get updates on thomas' parts more easily, thank you.

everyone keep up the great work on this products development!!!!

T.J.