URGENT - Massive/Sudden Coolant Leak - Possible Service Bulletin

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by wildwhl

Paricko -

I can appreciate your comment on lugging the engine, but if you're just cruising around (i.e. little to no load) I don't see the specific concern, though your point is well taken. Even so, I doubt lugging at that RPM range will cause any issues other than getting your ass run over for lack of acceleration. Of course, in my case, things sound so much better (2bular) over 4K I keep it there anyway

WW

Yes, but if the engine is propelling the car it is under load, and the engine will be laboring just as the manual advises against.

I can remember seeing somewhere (years ago) that around 4k rpm is were you should be for maximum fuel economy.

[Ol'Racer]

If you drive 65-70 mph on level ground without needing to accelerate, you can drive in 6th gear 3400-3600 rpm all day without hurting a thing (Elise/Exige). If you come up to a slight upgrade, passing, accelerating, then you can drop it down as many gears as you need to...*without over-revs.

The higher rpm (mentality) is from race cars, that usually have radical cams, timing, fueling, etc. Even a rally Porsche (70's era) that I had would track without a problem if the revs were over 3500 rpm...and the engine was trick...1000 rpm higher than normal ones of it's day.

What manuals say is just to protect bozos that don't know how to drive a stick and match proper rpms.

I wouldn't listen to housewives tales from 30-40 years ago relating to rpms. Just don't lug it and you'll be fine. You can lug it at 4000 rpm if the hill is steep enough and the wrong gear is selected. JMO

[lotus54]

Yes, if you are just giving it a tiny bit of throttle, the engine isn't 'labouring'. If you gave it more, then it could be depending on rpm.
Maybe an extreme example, but you couldn't even idle it out of the driveway without damage with the '4k rule'. I know it wasn't meant that way, but that is still the point I'm trying to make.

You don't really want heavy throttle at really low rpms. But I don't think cruising along at a lower rpm will do anything at all to damage it. Cruising isn't labouring. The BMEP is low and with all the modern electronics the engine runs just fine.

Of course, that is just my opinion.

[LARRY]

Originally Posted by lotus54

I had a slow coolant leak on my '05 Elise. It was the radiator hose, slightly loose clamp.
This has been discussed here before.
But what you describe seems different.

I'd like to see the bulletin notice. Since I live a long way from any dealer, it might be something I should have them look into.

Mark

Mine had this exact problem. Radiator hose in the front of the car. Hose clamp let go.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by Ol'Racer

The higher rpm (mentality) is from race cars, that usually have radical cams, timing, fueling, etc. Even a rally Porsche (70's era) that I had would track without a problem if the revs were over 3500 rpm...and the engine was trick...1000 rpm higher than normal ones of it's day.

What manuals say is just to protect bozos that don't know how to drive a stick and match proper rpms.

I wouldn't listen to housewives tales from 30-40 years ago relating to rpms. Just don't lug it and you'll be fine. You can lug it at 4000 rpm if the hill is steep enough and the wrong gear is selected. JMO

Everything I am talking about is specific to the 2ZZ Elise/Exige, not old school myths.

The bottom line is that there is no reason to be bellow 4k rpm in this car if you are above 30 mph.

[LBC111]

Originally Posted by Ol'Racer

I wouldn't listen to housewives tales from 30-40 years ago relating to rpms. JMO

SORRY, BUT I'LL TRUST PATRICO'S WORD ON THIS.. OVER ANYONE ELSE IN THIS PARTICULAR THREAD.

TAKE NOTE OF 1) HIS JOIN DATE, 2) THE NUMBER OF HIS POSTS 3) THE ACTUAL CONTENT OF SOME OF THEM

BOTTOM LINE - I THINK HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT!!!

But, in the end, it's your car. Do what you want.

[Ol'Racer]

Originally Posted by Patricko

Everything I am talking about is specific to the 2ZZ Elise/Exige, not old school myths.

The bottom line is that there is NO reason to be bellow 4k rpm in this car if you are above 30 mph.

There is NO reason to be AT 4k or ABOVE if you are driving according to what I mentioned in the previous thread. Here's what I said...

My Quote: If you drive 65-70 mph on level ground without needing to accelerate, you can drive in 6th gear 3400-3600 rpm all day without hurting a thing (Elise/Exige). If you come up to a slight upgrade, passing, accelerating, then you can drop it down as many gears as you need to...*without over-revs.

Any good engine builder will tell you the same. My experience tells me the same. Whatever turns you on...drive 5 or 6k all day...the engine won't look any better on the journals or walls at tear down.

I don't mind opinions, but you seem to state it as FACT, implying that a person will harm their engine if they don't keep the revs at 4k. If you believe that is fact then you are wrong.

Drivers will not harm their engine according to my quote. Forget me...call Dan Gurney's shop and ask his Toyota engine builder.

[Patricko]

i did not say that 4k is a magic number. Driving these cars at less than that will not be fun or fast...

The OP was driving at 50mph in 6th gear wich is less than 2600 rpm.

Originally Posted by Ol'Racer

There is NO reason to be AT 4k or ABOVE if you are driving according to what I mentioned in the previous thread. Here's what I said...

My Quote: If you drive 65-70 mph on level ground without needing to accelerate, you can drive in 6th gear 3400-3600 rpm all day without hurting a thing (Elise/Exige). If you come up to a slight upgrade, passing, accelerating, then you can drop it down as many gears as you need to...*without over-revs.

Any good engine builder will tell you the same. My experience tells me the same. Whatever turns you on...drive 5 or 6k all day...the engine won't look any better on the journals or walls at tear down.

I don't mind opinions, but you seem to state it as FACT, implying that a person will harm their engine if they don't keep the revs at 4k. If you believe that is fact then you are wrong.

Drivers will not harm their engine according to my quote. Forget me...call Dan Gurney's shop and ask his Toyota engine builder.

[Ol'Racer]

Originally Posted by Patricko

Driving these cars at less than that will not be fun or fast...

I totally agree with that!

[codymac]

Originally Posted by Patricko

The bottom line is that there is no reason to be bellow 4k rpm in this car if you are above 30 mph.

The bottom line is that there is no reason to be bellow 6200 rpm in this car unless you've had your cam switchover point changed.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by codymac

The bottom line is that there is no reason to be bellow 6200 rpm in this car unless you've had your cam switchover point changed.

I will see your 6200 and raise you to 7000

[Boondock Saint]

Originally Posted by Hiroprotaganist

The entire evening I had been taking it easy (I mean really easy, I was just happy listening to some good music) so I knew there was no normal reason for this.

Driving these cars at low RPM's is crazy to me since the fun starts at 4000 rpm or so but in all fairness it sounds like he was just trying to relax and enjoy some music based on his quote above. I do the same thing since, even when driving slow, this car is a blast to drive and I just like to sit in it. I don't let my rpm's go that low though. I just turn up the stereo to make up for the engine/exhaust music.

[glb]

Originally Posted by wildwhl

Paricko -

I can appreciate your comment on lugging the engine, but if you're just cruising around (i.e. little to no load) I don't see the specific concern, though your point is well taken. Even so, I doubt lugging at that RPM range will cause any issues other than getting your ass run over for lack of acceleration. Of course, in my case, things sound so much better (2bular) over 4K I keep it there anyway

WW

I agree. One can feel lugging. Certainly his driving had 0 to do w/problem. I can do a tick over 2000 rpm in a high gear w/steady state throttle (w/PES chip). It is not axiomatic that high revving engines can't be driven at low rpms safely. Were I British, I might say "rubbish".

[Hiroprotaganist]

This has gotten off track - to be VERY specific, I was driving on level ground behind no traffic and was not accelerating. I fail to see ANY causal connection between driving in 6th gear at relatively modest RPMs and a complete discharge of coolant. If there is a causal connection, then please share. My driving style is not the issue here - or should I go back and ask Skip Barber for a refund?

Had I wanted to accelerate, pass, drive "enthusiastically", or if the engine was under stress, I would have dropped the gearing down appropriately. The sweetspot of the powerband in my old S2000 was somewhere north of 5k - does that mean that under no-load/level-ground interstate cruising I should have just kept that engine on the hot cam in 4th instead of 6th? Clearly, the answer is no.

We all know where the fun begins on this engine - but that is not the issue at hand.

[lotus54]

Originally Posted by Patricko

i did not say that 4k is a magic number. Driving these cars at less than that will not be fun or fast...

The OP was driving at 50mph in 6th gear wich is less than 2600 rpm.

It sounded like it to me:

>>---Originally Posted by Patricko
Everything I am talking about is specific to the 2ZZ Elise/Exige, not old school myths.

The bottom line is that there is NO reason to be bellow 4k rpm in this car if you are above 30 mph.
>----


I agree it it way more fun faster, but I don't think it would damage it. That was what was said originally (or at least that is what I heard- not necessarily the same thing at all!)

As long as you are not lugging it - then I don't think it matters on the rpm.

I will cruise along at well below 4k all the time when just putting along.

Mark

[dododge]

Originally Posted by Patricko

You will have been at a bit less than 2600 RPM (50mph in 6th gear) and that will have been hard on the engine...

Regarding the attached chart, are you sure the ratios it uses are correct? According to the Elise manual page 159 the first line (1000RPM) should be 5.1, 7.7, 10.7, 13.6, 17.3, and 19.4 MPH, with ratios 3.17, 2.05, 1.48, 1.17, 0.92, and 0.81.

[LWK]

I had identical situation to my 07' S (blk radiator) too, after pulled aside I found the coolant bottle seems empty, I poured half bottle of water in and it runs fine again. Took it in to the dealer last week, they found out the radiator has minor leak due to this problem.

[vyuen]

Guys, this is getting a bit off topic, sounds like a coolant leak more than a driving style issue. Don't forget there are coolant pipes that run beneath the car from the back to the front, maybe sprung a leak somewhere beneath. Maybe he also coincidentally has a transmission problem as well. Who knows

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by dododge

Regarding the attached chart, are you sure the ratios it uses are correct? According to the Elise manual page 159 the first line (1000RPM) should be 5.1, 7.7, 10.7, 13.6, 17.3, and 19.4 MPH, with ratios 3.17, 2.05, 1.48, 1.17, 0.92, and 0.81.

No I am not sure, I found it on EliseTalk so it must be correct

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by Hiroprotaganist

... I fail to see ANY causal connection between driving in 6th gear at relatively modest RPMs and a complete discharge of coolant. If there is a causal connection, then please share. My driving style is not the issue here - or should I go back and ask Skip Barber for a refund?

Yes you should SB did not teach me to drive like that at Laguna Seca when I did the 3 day race school in January