2wicked is back from Monkey Wrench-236whp but drivability.....options? suggestions?

[dereklburt]

My 2006 Elise is back from Monkey Wrench Racing. Matt really tried to make things right for me and the service did really improve. They were very pleasant and informative when I picked up the car. Unfortunately for me, the car is still not tuned very well and after spending $5000, I still have a vehicle that is not quite "right".

The problem is with the tuning. I guess when they got a reflash from Charlie X, they asked for a base tune for a supercharged car to start with and it just is not quite right for mine, since mine is turbo. I guess that makes sense. It is better than it was but the power hesitates real bad down low and will shake when punched at a low rpm, then it comes on too quickly and does not hold good through the high rpm's. It is making decent power but it is very "peaky". Drivability is "so so" right now. It also stalled on me once when I stopped at a light and was waiting to turn.

They told me the car was tuned in at 8psi but when I drove it just prior to putting it in storage, it would start to overboost, so I had to let off. There was a lot of boost creep. I have a boost controller and they told me that it might initially overboost but would go away. Well, it went too high for my liking so I turned the boost controler down and it did ok after that. Would the real cold temperature cause the boost to go higher after it was already dialed in? I am assuming so as once I turned it down, I could see a steady 7-8psi.

As far as spending $5000 goes, I did get a LSD, a high volume fuel pump, a heavy duty clutch, and they fixed my gages in a nice center pod as well as rewired them, however my main goal and reason for taking it there was to get a well tuned car. That was the whole reason for spending the money on the other items as they were deemed necessary (except the LSD) for the higher power. Unfortunately my main goal was not met. It certainly runs much better than when I brought it to them and the peak power is comparitable to a FF275 kit and torque seems to even exceed it, but you can tell it is just not sorted out right and the drivability is not there. They told me that if they come across a better reflash or if I decide to get a stand alone, they can dial it in better. Unfortunately that is more money and that is why I forked it out now. I am especially concerned about the responsiveness at low rpm as I think it will hesitate bad and the power may not be very usable or friendly for autocross.

Charlie X, if you are reading this, you had mentioned that you were working on a tune for a Hass car like mine and mentioned that when it was done and you had the tune figure out, I could send mine back for a retune. I think that is what it will really need as Monkey Wrench pointed out that they had a Celica that was essentially set up just like mine and it was putting 280hp to the wheels BEFORE its final tune. I guess the electronics really is the key to our cars making power. Charlie X, if you end up with a better tune, I can always take it back to MWR for a final tune. I would greatly appreciate this if you come up with something better.

The only other option is a stand alone and I really do not have the money now after spending what I just spent. Well, it's stored until spring now anyway as the snow returned here in Michigan. I lucked out and had a couple warmer days when all the roads were dry and the snow dissappeared but now winter is back in full force. I appreciate your help and everyones input.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Obviously it's too late now, but I think you should have gone with the standalone from the beginning instead of looking for a "workable" or "acceptable" tune to run on. Now you're gonna have to spend more money to accomplish what you set out to do from the beginning.


My advice, if you need it: You have a couple options.


1. Stop playing around with "tuners" who claim they can fix your car because you know now it's a pipe dream. Store your car for the winter, and save for an EFI, and get it done right the next time around. The EFI is proven.

2. "Downgrade" to a proven, reliable, SC kit from either Sector111, BWR, or VF (whenever it comes out). The benefit is that you know it will work the 1st time around and for how much, whereas the costs for "fixing" your car in its current condition are really a question mark in terms of tuning labor. You might also be able to sell the turbo equipment and recoup some funds. Of course you'll have to pay for removing the turbo equipment.

Peace of mind is priceless and that only comes with reliability.

3. Take it all off and stay stock. Sometimes stock is how it was meant to be... You're not the only one with these head aches of getting your car just "right"...




Good luck... and remember that at least you got something out of your $$!

[dereklburt]

Well, in the beginning I thought I was doing the right thing. I was confident that it could be tuned properly after talking to MWR. I asked about a stand alone but was told that that was not necessary and would just be a big expense. The way it was initially presented was that they could send the calibrations for a custom tune to their tuner and they would reprogram the computer the way it needs to be. Not exactly what happened. That was why I went that route to begin with. Had I known, I would have paid for a stand alone and dealt with the other stuff as needed. Now I look at it that I had $775 for a computer reflash and 3 hours of dyno time with set up coming to $425. I essentially spent $1200 on a tune that is not right. Half way to a stand alone. It is better than what it was but just not right. I am hopeful that Charlie X can come up with a better tune and I can get it reflashed again with another $125 dyno session and have it good. I am sure that eventually I will go with a stand alone but not for a while due to cost.

Live and learn. I think that my set up is fine and I don't see any need to scrap it. It just needs a stand alone or a good tune to be right. There is no reason why mine can not run as good and make as good or better power than the supercharger kits available. I am sure it would with a stand alone.

[charliex]

yep like i told mwr, the SC tune is better than the NA tune to base off of, but its still not a turbo tune, just closer and they're going to fill in the holes with the emanage.

if i do end up doing a turbo tune that matches your car, i'll let you know, i could drop the acceleration enrichment which is probably one of the problems if its lagging on initial throttle. but i'm really not trying to do any tune by mail, you're welcome to visit us in vegas though


BM the vf kit is out

[Bavarian Motorist]

You are new here, I guess. Use this forum as a valuable resource. Many of us have "been there, done that" (not necessarily me).

Originally Posted by charliex

BM the vf kit is out

That's sweet news

[charliex]

yes it is, took long enough

derek, obviously if you bring it to vegas to tune, the emanage will have to come off, you could also talk to kverges, he's the only one i know with a working emanage setup.

[Bruce]

Now I guess you understand my reply.

Charlie X-please read

[dereklburt]

Well, it looks as if I am going to have to end up going to a stand alone to get it right. That really ticks me off as I asked about that in the first place and MWR apparently thought that was not initially necessary. They really kind of misled me on this thing and maybe they thought that they could get it better than they did, but as I mentioned it in my previous post, they presented things a little different to me. They made it sound initially as if they were going to give their custom specifications to the person doing the reflash (now I know they were referring to Charlie X) so that it would be right for my car.

That is quite a bit different than what occurred in reality. Now I spent $1200 between a reflash and 3 hours of dyno time on tuning that could have had me half way to a stand alone set up. AAAAAAAHHHHHHH

Well, looking on the bright side, at least I have my car back and it is running. I looked at a dyno plot for a Celica with a similar set up to mine (turbokits.com). It is also running 7-8psi with the same size turbo. When I compare the two dyno plots it looks like my car actually makes more power down low but less up top. At 4000rpm that car is only making 110whp where mine is making 140whp. By 5000 rpm, mine was still making about 10 more whp and about 10ftlbs more torque on average.

Mine has a huge torque peak that jumps from 160ftlbs at 4500 to 200ftlbs at about 5200 rpm. This is almost 20ftlbs higher than the Celica, but then it falls rapidly back down to 180ftlbs by 5700rpm. After about 6600rpm the torque again falls very quickly on my car so by 7000rpm it is about 20ftlbs less and by 8000rpm mine is 60ftlbs less than the Celica. (mine does not have a very flat torque curve, it rises rapidly to a peak and then drops fairly quickly)

Horsepower does the same. My peak is at 6500 which is 236whp and it starts dropping from there. By 8000rpm it is down to 210whp. The celica peaks later at 7500rpm (263hp) and stays steady all the way until 8200rpm. We are pretty even from 5000rpm to 6500rpm but after that the Celica keeps going where mine drops off. Peak on that car was 263whp.

[Bavarian Motorist]

No expert here...but sounds like you have a terrible tune!!!!!!

[Kris from DRS]

dereklburt,

If you are seriously leaning towards the EFI stand-alone let me know when you think you might be doing this. I am going to be on the east coast soon, and on the way back I need to visit a coulple other racing customers in WI. I can include visiting you to tune the stand-alone on one of the legs of the trip.

PM or email me to discuss details.

Kris

[Kris from DRS]

BTW - I forgot to mention if you decide to go this route you can sell that boost controller to recover some of your expenses. The EFI has boost control internal.

Kris

[charliex]

It does indeed sound off, if you can't make it out to vegas, or don't decide to go with kris and the efi, you could also talk to turboxs in maryland they have my tuning software out there too and might be able to work with it.

unless you're planning to keep tweaking it, a stand alone isn't necessary, it just needs to be tuned properly, i'm not a fan of the emanage myself, but you don't need that either.

[dereklburt]

Well, a stand alone is not something that I will even be able to consider for a while as I just dropped 5K on what I had done and spending another few thousand is out of the question for a while. I would not be opposed to a road trip to Vegas as it might be a fun trip but I also do not want to spend a lot more money. I really do not have it to spend right now especially unless I know that it is going to turn out right. Charlie, I am sure that you could tune it based on what I have read about your abilities but I am not sure how much dyno time and cost would be actually involved. The time factor would also be a question as I wouldn't mind a few days stay in vegas, but could not afford to stay much more than that. I am getting married next year and my girlfriend loves the car but I am already in deep for spending what I did. I would just want to be realistic about the cost to try to fix what I have vs. saving up for a stand alone as well as the end result.

I do have future plans for more upgrades (probably at least 1 1/2 to 2 years out) to put lower compression pistons in so that I could up the boost and get a GT2871R turbo upgrade so that I could eventually get around 380-400whp. I was just hoping to have it tuned right so that I could enjoy it like it is for the next year or two until I could take the next step for upgrades.

[charliex]

Well when people buy a tune from me i generally don't charge to retune it if there is a problem and fix it, granted i didn't tune your car i just provided a base flash and gave out the same info i posted here but regardless i'm more interested in making sure you get something decent, our local dyno charges about $100 an hour we could probably fix it in about 3 hours actual dyno time ( usually it takes more because of mechanical problems so add on a bit extra for that) and then we can spend a few hours street tuning it, a day at the dyno generally runs around $700 , it just all depends on what state the car is in.


so long as i'm free and you come to vegas, pay for the dyno time, thats all i'll charge you (which is $0, since you'd pay the dyno guys not me )

the only thing that concerns me is the mechanical state of the car, i can't sort out the tune if theres something mechanical wrong, and its an awfully long way to come to vegas to find that out, plus theres the old last person to touch it thing.

we already have a car, ronin's, that runs 450 rwhp but you'll need a significant investment for that, a standalone would be the least of the cost there.

i don't know much about your car other whats posted, so if you could let me know all the mods it has that'd help.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by charliex

so long as i'm free and you come to vegas, pay for the dyno time, thats all i'll charge you (which is $0, since you'd pay the dyno guys not me )

Will you marry me?





Seriously, what a great dude!! You're being offered a hell of a deal, Derek!

[kverges]

I'll chime in one last time. From your description of the Dyno plot, I wonder what was done on timing and acceleration enrichment in the eManage. I'd be happy to email you my eManage maps to play with but (1) you must promise to use a 2 computers to log the factory ECU activity and the eManage and use what I send you as a template, not the be-all, end-all tune for your particular car; and (2) what version of eManage firmware are you using?

I can't do any of this for a couple of weeks, as all my stuff is at my shop and I am going to the 25 hour race at Thunderhill this weekend.

Seriously, though, you can get a lot further with the eManage if you want to try it.

[dereklburt]

CharlieX, I truly appreciate your offer and may in fact take you up on it next spring/summer if I can work it out. As far as modifications, the car is essentially stock except for the Hass turbo. I have a heavy duty clutch and high volume fuel pump that was just installed at MWR along with a different exhaust manifold that is more free flowing.

If I do in fact come all the way out to Vegas next year, I may consider dropping in some lower compression pistons before hand so that I could tune it at a little higher boost level since it would be difficult to retune later. I have talked to a couple different people and I have been told that the stock rods are good up to about 400hp (more that I would ever make) and they have forged pistons that will drop in for about $500. Otherwise, I would be looking at having to have it retuned again.

The car only has 7800 miles on it and is mechanically sound. Would the low compression pistons cause any more difficulties with tuning? I know that you said the emanage would go and I could care less as long as the car is tuned properly. What about the boost controller? Would it still be used? I would also like to know the best way to get in touch with you to set something up next year. Again, I truly appreciate your generosity. I just spoke to my girlfriend and she mentioned that we could just get married out there as neither of us really wanted to have a big wedding.

[dereklburt]

kverges, Thank you for the offer as well. Unfortunately I would have no idea how to even tune the emanage and would be worried about messing it up further. I do appreciate your willingness to help. This forum has been very helpful. I wish I would have discovered it earlier. Thank you all