Force fed Turbo

[charliex]

>I was not aware of anyone in the Lotus world cracking the code successfully on the 06'< at least not until recently. I might be wrong on this

You are, I did it a while ago, and i know of one of other group that did it too around the same time, as i have been lead to believe Bemani also reflashed the 06 ecu's for their kit, but i've never heard a solid answer on that.

> It might be the same brand manufaturer for the Lambo or Toca car but that doesn't make it the exact same ECU
It is not as complex as the ECU on a Porsche, I can gaurantee you that.

Wrong here too, it is the same internally just in a different box with different connectors that are common in thos fields, i presume you've actually looked at them and come to this conclusion vs guessing or just assumption ? No insult intended, but i do get the feeling you're not basing your claims on actual experience or specific knowledge of the ECU's but rather guesswork ?

They aren't much different from the ecu's Porsche use, what area of complexity are you referring to ?, if you can guarantee it, please do so.



Bemani and Lotus both claim a 0-60 of around 4.1 seconds, if the bemani kit is faster than that, why doesn't it show in their marketing details ? I'm not saying it is or isn't but i haven't seen much in the way of a solid comparison showing otherwise. The S is silky smooth power delivery too, which has a lot to do with it being supercharged vs a the turbo of the FF kit. My S also idles just fine.

[fzust]

I have a HIGHLY modified FF275 running 108Octane Race gas. Car has been dynoed at the wheels at over 300HP. The FF is a very well-designed kit. The manifold is top notch and the plumbing connectors etc are very good. I would recommend the standalone ECU as the throttle responsive is much better as well as low-end torque. I have punished the car in Auto-X events in California as well as ARizona where I live and it has performed very well. I don't believe any other kit has as many roadmiles on it. Good luck

[bemani]

charliex, you're right, we do reflash the '06 ECU as well. The first softwareversion of the '06 had a very easy checksum correction. For the B and C it took me 80 hours to finally crack it....

Have you personally measured a Lotus Supercharger? We did at same day as we did ours:
-bemani: 4.2s 0 to 63 mph
-lotus: 5.1s 0 to 63 mph

Lotus and bemani has also been tested by a swiss car magazine, and the did the same times as we did.

In switzerland Lotus tells that their cars do it in 3.9s, just to be faster (on the paper) than we are.... But noone would buy a Exige S in Switzerland. I think that speaks for itself....

[charliex]

5.1 seconds ? Pretty unlikely the N/A 1zz elise S has been 'magazine tested' at 5.8, so you're saying the 220HP S with a supercharged 2ZZ is only .7 faster than a 1zz 160HP NA??

[CalBears92]

You can't compare 0-60 times as absolute -- only in relative terms.

The 5.8 magazine test can't be compared with the 5.1 from the Bemani and the Swiss Magazine test.

[charliex]

They are relative thats why you can use them, because they relate, the power to weight ratios, engine types etc are what contribute to the 0-60 time. A NA 160HP 1zz that reaches 0-60 5.8 compared to a 2zz FI 220HP car only reaching 5.1 does not seem reasonable.

maybe Nick is on to something, i haven't really tested the 0-60 in my S, but calculating it up from these figures makes his claims interesting to say the least.

i don't know the kerb weight of the elise S or the Exige S so i guessed, the elise S is probably less than 2000 lbs, (bemani says starting at 880kg which is 1940lbs, that must be a lightened version car so i'll use the S guessed weight for simplicitys sake)

a 160HP flywheel car at 2000lbs would have a calculated 0-60 of 5.55 with a ratio of 0.08(which lotus claims , so a 5.8 seems reasonable)
a 220HP flywheel at 2100lbs would be 0-60 at 4.53 with a 0.10 power to weight
a 263HP flywheel at 2100lbs would be 0-60 3.97 at a ratio of 0.12

food for thought, of course most people are dynoing the S at higher than 220HP.

[bemani]

I will see if I can find those magazine tests, and I'll post them.

Calculating the acceleration is fine, but according to all the tests with a lot of different cars we have done, it's usually quite a bit off.....

[charliex]

indeed, but thats the best you can really rely on there are so many other factors involved on street/dyno testing, using the math allows you to do better comparisons, especially if you know the right flywheel hp and curb weights, the other differences come into play, if you just increase the weight and HP of car and nothing else, then the calculation should be pretty darn accurate.

i'm pretty sure lotus generally gives out the calculated values for 0-60 times as it nearly always matches up with the calculations, sinces its a fairly worthless metric anyway.

what is the curb weight of that kit as is posted on a federal exige ?

Personally i'd be checking the o rings on the supercharger intakes for the car that only got 5.1

[Jamncali]

Originally Posted by charliex

>I was not aware of anyone in the Lotus world cracking the code successfully on the 06'< at least not until recently. I might be wrong on this

You are, I did it a while ago, and i know of one of other group that did it too around the same time, as i have been lead to believe Bemani also reflashed the 06 ecu's for their kit, but i've never heard a solid answer on that.

> It might be the same brand manufaturer for the Lambo or Toca car but that doesn't make it the exact same ECU
It is not as complex as the ECU on a Porsche, I can gaurantee you that.

Wrong here too, it is the same internally just in a different box with different connectors that are common in thos fields, i presume you've actually looked at them and come to this conclusion vs guessing or just assumption ? No insult intended, but i do get the feeling you're not basing your claims on actual experience or specific knowledge of the ECU's but rather guesswork ?

They aren't much different from the ecu's Porsche use, what area of complexity are you referring to ?, if you can guarantee it, please do so.



Bemani and Lotus both claim a 0-60 of around 4.1 seconds, if the bemani kit is faster than that, why doesn't it show in their marketing details ? I'm not saying it is or isn't but i haven't seen much in the way of a solid comparison showing otherwise. The S is silky smooth power delivery too, which has a lot to do with it being supercharged vs a the turbo of the FF kit. My S also idles just fine.

My understanding was that up until recently, the units self learning mode was hampering reflases for the 06 cars. I was not aware that you cracked the codes on that sucessfully. Bemani does have programs for the 06's.

The last porsche ECU that I saw apart had five processers in it handling numerous functions. Are you saying that the Lotus ECU has the same internals? PS. I am not a software engineer, but I have tuned a couple hundred Porsches over the years. Most of the upgrades were done using Gemballa or TTP progamming. It is hard for me to believe that a car that is as basic and under optioned as the elise or Exige has the need for computer that is any more complex than the one in a 95 Dodge Neon?

[charliex]

Originally Posted by Jamncali

My understanding was that up until recently, the units self learning mode was hampering reflases for the 06 cars. I was not aware that you cracked the codes on that sucessfully. Bemani does have programs for the 06's.

i disabled the learn well over 24 months ago, its the same for both, yeah nick from bemani confirmed theirs

The last porsche ECU that I saw apart had five processers in it handling numerous functions. Are you saying that the Lotus ECU has the same internals? PS. I am not a software engineer, but I have tuned a couple hundred Porsches over the years. Most of the upgrades were done using Gemballa or TTP progamming. It is hard for me to believe that a car that is as basic and under optioned as the elise or Exige has the need for computer that is any more complex than the one in a 95 Dodge Neon?

which version motronic has 5 processors? (the bmw one has a bunch of very basic cpus, it needs more than one because one alone can't handle the workload)

saying 5 processors doesn't really mean its more complex, a processor itself may be very limited in its abilities so say PWMs are on one process, TC, etc on others, dBW etc. the modern ecu's have processors specifically designed for automotive so all the functions are in one larger processor versus N seperate smaller ones. For instance the 376 in the 05 ecu has a dedicated co processor inside the main one that runs a lot of automotive specific functions, various decoders/encoders etc.

the ecu in the lotus has the ability to run n-alpha,map,maf all switchable at runtime, data logging capabilities at 200hz sample rate, can run VVtli-i, vanos and a few others, 2x self learning fuel mapping, 21 analogue inputs, 4 injector drivers (its big brother has upto 8), sequential injection, add on for direction injection, wide band input, spare kthermocouple inputs ( 4 i think) self mapping boost control, traction control, switchable maps, 2 high speed CAN networks, selectable encoder patterns for various engines, twin processors (one main, one secondary for dbw) , this is just a partial list, find me a dodge neon with that capability and i'll show you a neon with an aftermaket ecu..

[Jamncali]

Did I mention that I am not a software engineer?

[charliex]

did i mention i am (hardware and software)


the older motronics you're talking about are probably the same time frame as the old bmw one, with multiple intel 8751 processors that had different capabilities, you're looking at a single cpu with two timers, 128 bytes of ram, 4K of eeprom and four eight digital IO ports, whereas the 05 ecu's cpu has , wait for it,

Central Processing Unit (CPU32) 32 Bit Archirecture
Virtual Memory Implementation
Table Lookup and Interpolate Instruction
Improved Exception Handling for Controller Applications
High Level Language Support
Background Debugging Mode
Fully Static Operation
System Integration Module

External Bus Support
Programmable Chip Select Outputs
System Protection Logic
Watchdog Timer, Clock Monitor and Bus Monitor
Two 8 bit Dual Function Input/Output Ports
One 7 bit Dual Function Output Port
Phase-Locked Loop (PLL) Clock System
Time Processing Unit (TPU)

Dedicated Micro-Engine Operating Independently of CPU32
16 Independent Programmable Channels and Pins
Each Channel has an /Event Register Consisting of a 16 bit Capture Register, a 16 Bit
Compare Register and a 16 Bit Comparator Any Channel can Perform Any Time Function
Each Channel has Six or Eight 16 Bit Parameter Registers
Each Timer FunctionMay Be Assigned to More Than One Channel
Two Timer Counter Registers with Programmable Prescalers
Each Channel Can Be Synchronized to Either or Both Counters
Selectable Channel Priority Levels

Configurable Timer Module Version 4 (CTM4)

Two 16 bit modulus counters (MCSM)
16 Bit Free-Running Counter (FCSM)
4 Double-action capture/compare channels, with PWM mode (DASM)
4 Dedicated PWM channels, each having its own 16 bit modulus counter (PWMSM)

Two Serial I/O Subsystems (QSM)

Enhanced serial communication interface (SCI)
Modulus baud rate generator
Parity detection
Queued serial peripheral interface (QSPI)
80 byte static RAM to perform queued operations
Up to 16 automatic transfers
Continuous cycling, 8 to 16 bits per transfer, LSB or MSB first
Dual function I/O pins

10 Bit Queued Analog-to-Digital Converter (QADC)

16 Channels internally; up to 41 directly accessible channels with external multiplexing
Six automatic channel selection and conversion modes
Two channel scan queues of veriable length, each with a variable number of sub-queues
40 Result registers and three result alignment formats
Programmable input sample time
Direct control of multiplexers

CAN 2.0B Controller Modules (TouCAN)

Full implementation of CAN protocol specification, version 2.0 A and B
16 receive/transmit message buffers of 0 to 8 bytes data length
Global mask register for message buffers 0 to 13
Independent mask registers for message buffers 14 and 15
Programmable transmit first scheme: lowest ID or lowest buffer number
16 bit free-running timer for message time-stamping
Low power sleep mode with programmable wake-up on bus activity

Masked ROM Module (MRM)

8 Kbyte array accessible as bytes or words
User selestable default base address
User selestable bootstrap ROM function
User selestable ROM verification code

3.5 Kbyte TPU Emulation RAM (TPURAM)

External VSTBY pin for separate standby supply
May be used as normal RAM or TPU emulation

RAM 4 Kbytes of Static RAM
No Standby Supply

[CalBears92]

what are we bashing again?

[charliex]

I'm defending the ECU in the lotus, not bashing it. Its actually quite powerful.

[Jamncali]

[quote=charliex]

did i mention i am (hardware and software)



the older motronics you're talking about are probably the same time frame as the old bmw one, with multiple intel 8751 processors that had different capabilities, you're looking at a single cpu with two timers, 128 bytes of ram, 4K of eeprom and four eight digital IO ports, whereas the 05 ecu's cpu has , wait for it,

Central Processing Unit (CPU32) 32 Bit Archirecture
Virtual Memory Implementation
Table Lookup and Interpolate Instruction
Improved Exception Handling for Controller Applications
High Level Language Support
Background Debugging Mode
Fully Static Operation
System Integration Module

External Bus Support
Programmable Chip Select Outputs
System Protection Logic
Watchdog Timer, Clock Monitor and Bus Monitor
Two 8 bit Dual Function Input/Output Ports
One 7 bit Dual Function Output Port
Phase-Locked Loop (PLL) Clock System
Time Processing Unit (TPU)

Dedicated Micro-Engine Operating Independently of CPU32
16 Independent Programmable Channels and Pins
Each Channel has an /Event Register Consisting of a 16 bit Capture Register, a 16 Bit
Compare Register and a 16 Bit Comparator Any Channel can Perform Any Time Function
Each Channel has Six or Eight 16 Bit Parameter Registers
Each Timer FunctionMay Be Assigned to More Than One Channel
Two Timer Counter Registers with Programmable Prescalers
Each Channel Can Be Synchronized to Either or Both Counters
Selectable Channel Priority Levels

Configurable Timer Module Version 4 (CTM4)

Two 16 bit modulus counters (MCSM)
16 Bit Free-Running Counter (FCSM)
4 Double-action capture/compare channels, with PWM mode (DASM)
4 Dedicated PWM channels, each having its own 16 bit modulus counter (PWMSM)

Two Serial I/O Subsystems (QSM)

Enhanced serial communication interface (SCI)
Modulus baud rate generator
Parity detection
Queued serial peripheral interface (QSPI)
80 byte static RAM to perform queued operations
Up to 16 automatic transfers
Continuous cycling, 8 to 16 bits per transfer, LSB or MSB first
Dual function I/O pins

10 Bit Queued Analog-to-Digital Converter (QADC)

16 Channels internally; up to 41 directly accessible channels with external multiplexing
Six automatic channel selection and conversion modes
Two channel scan queues of veriable length, each with a variable number of sub-queues
40 Result registers and three result alignment formats
Programmable input sample time
Direct control of multiplexers

CAN 2.0B Controller Modules (TouCAN)

Full implementation of CAN protocol specification, version 2.0 A and B
16 receive/transmit message buffers of 0 to 8 bytes data length
Global mask register for message buffers 0 to 13
Independent mask registers for message buffers 14 and 15
Programmable transmit first scheme: lowest ID or lowest buffer number
16 bit free-running timer for message time-stamping
Low power sleep mode with programmable wake-up on bus activity

Masked ROM Module (MRM)

8 Kbyte array accessible as bytes or words
User selestable default base address
User selestable bootstrap ROM function
User selestable ROM verification code

3.5 Kbyte TPU Emulation RAM (TPURAM)

External VSTBY pin for separate standby supply
May be used as normal RAM or TPU emulation

RAM 4 Kbytes of Static RAM
No Standby Supply[/QUOTE


Ok! Compare it to a New Porsche Twin Turbo and or the baby Lambo or maybe even the Lancer with It's very complex AWD system w/ACD and active yaw control..

Break it down for me. What is the diff?

[Jamncali]

Originally Posted by charliex

I'm defending the ECU in the lotus, not bashing it. Its actually quite powerful.

Defending it from what, the Communist?

[charliex]

Originally Posted by Jamncali

Ok! Compare it to a New Porsche Twin Turbo and or the baby Lambo or maybe even the Lancer with It's very complex AWD system w/ACD and active yaw control..

Break it down for me. What is the diff?

lets switch from the Dodge Neon to a brand new porsche twin turbo.

ok, well first off the AWD, yaw, abs, etc all are software, not hardware (outside the external sensors) so they have really nothing to do with the cpu in the ECU outside of the speed of processor, so long as the cpu is fast enough to do all the calculations necessary, then pretty much any ecu can handle it.

I don't know specifically which revision is in the new twin turbo, the last one i saw was the 7.8, but the EDC16/+/ME9/MED9/MS45/EDC7 all use basically the idential processor the 06 lotus ecu uses. So the X5, toerag(cayenne) etc

Those things aren't actually all that complicated, active yaw, abs etc, they're really quite simple from a software point of view, the key with them is making them work correctly with the car, which is basically the same as say tuning an AF mix.

You'll find the same CPU as the 06 ecu in just about any european derived car, lambo, porsche, bmw, lancia, all share the same family ( there are 3 or 4 cpu models that are used from that same family)


Efi italy makes the lambo ecu, they only have 4 types of ECU, they just put them in different boxes.

Yes the communists, even though its an italian ECU.

Other cars with the same family ECU as the Lotus 06 (though mostly the 05 predecessor )

http://www.adtramontana.com/
http://www.sun-red.com/Formacion/inicioFormacion.htm
http://www.jasmotorsport.com/civicTypeRGr.htm

And how about this fella, is this enough lambo for you ? its murcielago GT car, same ecu family, won the first FIA GT, it ain't a dodge neon thats for sure this runs basically the same ecu thats in the 05 cars, just a few more injector circuits etc.


also the judd too

[charliex]

maybe a mod should split this thread off, since its gone way off track

[Jamncali]

The murcielago GT that is..

I think on the EVO for instance that there is more than one computer to carry on the functions in the vehicle at least as far the the ACD/ Active Yaw is concerned.... These boxes still have to communicate with the main Drive computer. Correct?

You also have the cars with TripTronic or DSG and Sequential Gearboxes. Logic says that these would be more complex than the ECU in the 95 Dodge Neon or the Lotus. I mean you have all kinds of things going on in these cars with their semi automatic tranmissions and incredibly complex driver assist programs like Tc, PSM (Porsche Stability management) etc.

Being in the Electronics Industry, I can see how the same product can change cosmetic appearance pretty fast with an auto re-arrange of it's circuit board and componants.

You were very informative in your response about the 06 Lotus ECU. You seem to know it very well. What are the basic differences between it and the 05?

[charliex]

Again basically they are software, you have your inputs from wheels, a few accelerometers etc and then its just a case of looking at those, for instance traction control basically just looks at the individual wheel speeds, load etc and then determines how to fire the injectors ( very basically) thats using existing hardware (the abs ) the speedo is also using the abs circuit, on the 06's the radio even uses the same circuit for controlling volume.

most ecu's are somewhat future proofed, they add a couple of extra inputs and outputs that the OEM can add stuff too, so when they need a new sensor they can just add it in the harness, say like the Exige S's intercooler temperature sensor gets fed in where the oil temp sensor was originally destined.

then things like ROHS comes along, or the chip makers discontinue the processor type, this happened with the Motorola/Freescale CPU32 series, so most of the ECU makers switched over to the Motorola/Freescale PowerPC series instead. Also with the introduction of all these fancy electronic controls the CPU needed to be a bit more beefy, for instance that lambo is running a 68K CPU32 at 20Mhz , yep thats not a typo, 20Mhz my Amiga from around 1994 had a faster processor than that, the new 06 is based on a 200Mhz PowerPC which is the biggest difference, there is a smaller processor that is tacked on that basically looks after the DBW all by itself, the two throttle pots feed into it and it determines if its all safe and feeds that information into the main CPU.

Basically the differences between the 05 and the 06 are the added DBW CPU, a switch from the Freescale CPU32 68K series of processors to the Freescale PowerPC processor, they also switched the board density and are using a much higher quality process to build them, otherwise they're pretty much the same, it has a few more features, basically a couple of extra inputs, but it has a lot more processing power, but the 05 20Mhz processor could also do Traction control as well as the 200Mhz 06 version, generally they stick to what works and they don't need crazy Gigahertz quad core CPU's, especially since a lot of the trickier stuff is actually done in custom silicon, so you feed in a PWM from the crank and the chip spits out the signals the programmer is expecting to see, he doesn't have to run complex analysis on them to extract the timing, its just neatly presented to you.

However if memory serves correctly the CPU in the 06 ECU's is also discontinued, but there is a replacement equivalent part.