Hass Turbo 3 years later

[kverges]

After a year with this kit, I'll fess up and say I wish I knew then what I know now and even that's not enough. Put differently, I have another Elise I am going to use purely on track and I will not use the Hass kit but will probably go turbo.

Then again, Frank et al's success with the S/C has been very impressive.

Technical details after a year's use:

The Good:

1. The eManage tune has stayed stable and the car runs great part throttle and up to 6000 rpm. I periodically log the A/F ratio via the permanently-installed Innovate LC-1 and the car sees 11-12:1 A/F at all times under boost. The idle is rough and probably always will be. Above 6000 rpm, the power can be erratic and not what I expect. Stan saw that in earlier logs with other Hass turbos and my theory is below. The A/F about 6000 rpm remains at 11-12:1 - I am pretty sure the problem with power is timing.

2. No engine damage I can tell so far, and I probably have 5000 miles with a turbo.

3. Most of the parts have held up pretty well, with exceptions noted below.

4. For driving around on the streets, the car is a real pleasure, much more torque, fun sounds of the spooling turbo and whooshing blowoff valve.


The Bad:

1. Hass appears to be gone, at least as far as support goes. I have heard nothing from him since about Thanksgiving, and he has given me essentially no support on the Hydra or mechanical problems over the past 2 months. I am on my own at this point and will therefore do something other than a Hass kit for the next car, as there is no point paying for a kit that now seems to have no follow-up support.

2. The exhaust manifold has warped. This is actually not much of a problem, as the warpage does not cause any leaks due to the fact that the warpage is worst at each end, and tightening on the studs at each end seems to increase the clamp load in the middle of the manifold. I did have to install a new gasket, though.

3. The wastegate actuator just plain cooked on track and the diaphram failed, resulting in loss of boost control. Another ET user pointed me to a substitute that turns out to be smaller and can be positioned further from the exhaust manifold to hopefully live longer. On the street this is probably less or no issue, but who knows. My track car will have an external wastegate.

4. The Hydra cannot be OBDII compliant, so I plan to use it for the track car. I am hoping that CharlieX will sell me his reflash tool.

5. The eManage has a timing control problem at high RPM. I suspect that the feedback from the coils to the Lotus ECU may cause the ECU to "learn" that the timing is being retarded by the EM, and it in turn advances timing until the car knocks, then abruptly retards timing, only to advance again and repeat. I say this because Lotus ECU data logs show timing over 6000 rpm to erratically vary from about 31 to 12 degrees total advance. Problem is that I do not know if the log is recording the output signal to the coils or the feedback signal from the coils. I can't log knock at all, so I am guessing there as well. Again, I hope CharlieX will rescue me.

Another option is the XEDE, which intercepts the CAS signal (I think), rather than the coil output signal, so that the Lotus ECU may be genuinely fooled by the XEDE, at least for timing. I am considering running an XEDE and EM (the latter since I already have it and it does have some extra functionality like water injection control that I want to retain). I can't get anyone from Vishnu to respond to my queries, though, prior to purchasing. They may be busy with 335i tuning and other bigger-market projects. After all, with the EM not being enough and CharlieX's project going so well, they may not want to invest a bunch of time on the Lotus.

Overall, I am obstinately optimistic that turbo FI will work, but the tuning remains an issue, especially to have OBDII compliance.

It is a shame, though, that the DIY turbo approach has been so poorly executed in most respects and then resulted in a fued that seems to have divided the community worse than CART and IndyCar. Frank et all seem to have some awsome stuff, and I also think there is potential here.

Bottom line is that engine management remains the roadblock to me as far as "perfecting" the turbo setup. I hope that CharlieX or XEDE turns out to be the silver bullet for OBDII-compliant street use, and I think Hydra will be great for the track.

So that is it for right now, just thougth I'd catch up and update a bit.

[Lotus F1]

"The wastegate actuator just plain cooked on track and the diaphram failed, resulting in loss of boost control. Another ET user pointed me to a substitute that turns out to be smaller and can be positioned further from the exhaust manifold to hopefully live longer. On the street this is probably less or no issue, but who knows. My track car will have an external wastegate."

I too had one cook. Where can I get the better option?

PS. Nice writeup!

[kverges]

Harrybauls (ack) had a great recommendation:

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=WGT

Also use their custom bracket

http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/me...egory_Code=WGT

and you can get the setup much further from the manifold. Also wrap it in heat reflective & insulating blanket, held in place by safety wire.

And if you are going to go to this level of effort, drill the turbo outlet for 1/8 NPT and add a nipple. Use it to feed directly to the actuator - the tubing run should be only a few inches and will result in fast, stable native boost control. This actuator seems to be designed for 7 psi, and doing it this way results in about 5.5-6 psi at the engine after boost drop through the intercooler, which should be safe on the street. I am hoping this setup has better longevity.

[climb4fun]

Seems too much headache and not much fun!

[kverges]

You are probably right, but I have problems leaving well enough alone

[Harrybauls]

Originally Posted by kverges

2. The exhaust manifold has warped. This is actually not much of a problem, as the warpage does not cause any leaks due to the fact that the warpage is worst at each end, and tightening on the studs at each end seems to increase the clamp load in the middle of the manifold. I did have to install a new gasket, though.

3. The wastegate actuator just plain cooked on track and the diaphram failed, resulting in loss of boost control. Another ET user pointed me to a substitute that turns out to be smaller and can be positioned further from the exhaust manifold to hopefully live longer. On the street this is probably less or no issue, but who knows. My track car will have an external wastegate.

I think LotusF1 posted this already to Aztec, but a local manifold builder and very high end welder recommend that I cut the flange between the runners right through the stud holes to allow the manifold to expand and flex. Within 15 seconds of looking at it he said that it will lift at the ends and likely yank the studs out of the head. His theory has been proven correct a few times now. I'll be running this way until he frees up some time and I can have him build an equal length mani for me (similar to the Neukin).

I'm glad the wastegate suggestion worked out for you. I'm about to order mine now. I picked up a take-off Hass kit and am about to start the install. Hopefully Charlie will have something ready for release when I'm ready to go...

Cheers.

[Chococar]

Thanks for the write-up.

[kverges]

Harry, can you post photos of the manifold mod? I would like to see how it is done. I am concerned about cutting the flange since there are only 5 fasteners that hold it to the head, so there are not 2 per port.

After reading, I think you meant bolt holes? The studs are at either end, with three bolts in the middle - and now I can see how splitting the bolt holes would allow for flex/expansion and still let the bolts clamp both parts of the now-split manifold flange

[Harrybauls]

Originally Posted by kverges

Harry, can you post photos of the manifold mod? I would like to see how it is done. I am concerned about cutting the flange since there are only 5 fasteners that hold it to the head, so there are not 2 per port.

After reading, I think you meant bolt holes? The studs are at either end, with three bolts in the middle - and now I can see how splitting the bolt holes would allow for flex/expansion and still let the bolts clamp both parts of the now-split manifold flange

Yup... too early in the morning for me.

I haven't done the mod yet. I got as far as clamping the manifold in the vise before I was reminded of "more important" mods to the house that I promised to get to months ago. I'll likely get to it next week.

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by Harrybauls

Yup... too early in the morning for me.

I haven't done the mod yet. I got as far as clamping the manifold in the vise before I was reminded of "more important" mods to the house that I promised to get to months ago. I'll likely get to it next week.

Excellent.. Let's keep each other updated on this. I will do this mod as well and would like to see how it comes out.

[slaughtr]

Originally Posted by climb4fun

Seems too much headache and not much fun!

Your right. The Elise IS fun. But believe me, it's even MORE fun when your blowing compressed air into it.

[kverges]

I think the thread should almost be renamed, given (1) the degree of changes and re-work I have done; and (2) the fact that Jay Hassinger has disappeared and abandoned these kits (except perhaps for making and sellng them) months ago. Calling this a Hass turbo is too much credit.

Anyway, the latest is that the manifold warpage pulled one stud loose from the head, so I had to pull the rear clam to helicoil the hole. I took the time to modify the manifold as shown in one of the photos.

the photos show the whole setup, including cold air induction from the passenger side, the manifold mods to be sure the fasteners stay put, and the new wastegate actuator in place with heat shield wrapping it.

The tune remains stable, with the strange timing drop-off at higher rpm intermittently. I hope Charlie's SW is available soon, so I can see what I can do about the timing map.

Car runs reliably and is fun, it just is not up to its potential.

But I do have Mortimer's dead engine to see about low compression pistons and some major boost in the track Elise.

[Lotus F1]

Kverges... awesome work and thanks so much for sharing. Would you be willing to sell the new turbo intake tubing? Is the wastegate a new one or is the mod to cover it up with the heat covering or both?

Nice work on the manifold! I know Stan wanted to do something like this for mine. Nice!

[kverges]

The WG actuator is new - I got the tip from another member and it is smaller, but does have higher native boost pressure, about 7 psi. But then again you can connect it straight to the turbo compressor output volute, so there is only about 6" of tubing, so the response is quick and with the loss of pressure in the intercooler, I am seeing 6.5-7psi native boost in the manifold. I also port the WG passage in the turbo exhaust volute to help avoid boost spikes and creep.

Intake tubing is a custom-one-off deal and requires cutting and patching a small area of the trunk for clearance. It would frankly be cheaper for you to find a local fabricator and show him or her the photos and say "please do this."

[kverges]

A month later and these changes have now been done to my car and a customer/friend's car, with a few hours of track time and probably 1000 street miles and all is fine with both cars. The car is a real joy and I have enjoyed doing nothing but putting gas in it and enjoying spring weather. The tune remains stable and if possible, the car seems to have "learned" to control timing better on the cams, as the seat of the pants experience of late shows good power all the way to 8500 rpm. I actually went with a smaller water jet and that seems to have helped - I may have had too much water injected, as I am not terribly knowledgable about optimizing the proper water flow rate other than trial and error.

Took it to a state inspection station and it passed OBDII interrogation fine, so I have my inspection sticker until next year.

Getting about 22-23 mpg with very sprited driving around town and highway.

Frankly, I am calling my car finished for now as the monkeytuner software is mail order only and I just don't see how to do that efficiently from Texas and I am pretty happy with how my car runs. I have another project that needs work.

Maybe I will find time to run on a dyno, as I am mildly curious and suspect others are, too.

My next Elise project is a DIY 2-11 type of thing, and as soon as I get the cage and seats in it, I will need to figure out what power adder to use. I still like turbos, for their lightness and efficiency, but a simple S/C has some appeal, too. I also am concerned that I will need to get some kind of LSD to put the power down on corner exit, another hurdle.

[Lotus F1]

Thanks for the contunued update. I am glad to hear your manifold updates are working well. Do you have a link to where I can purchase the smaller updated W/G

[MikeW]

Kverges, thanks for the report. Interesting theory about the timing being pulled out. 31 back to 12 degrees is a LOT! I'd be concerned. If it was a front engine, you'd be able to get a timing light on it on the dyno and compare to what you log and verify what actuall crank timing is. Unless they'd let you straddle the rollers, I don't see an easy way on the Lotus. Can't think of anything except a very small timing light mounted in position and a camera to monitor whether the timing changes at the crank in actuality. But it sound as if it is pulling timing out, in desperation. Throw in a gallon of toluene with 9 gal of gas (10%) and see if it does the trick. You can go higher concentraation but don't get carried away. You might even mix some up to take to the dyno session and do a couple before and after dyno runs. Sound like an additional knock indicator is in order. Good luck, let us know anything new.

[kverges]

Lotus F1 - read the whole thread and post 3 may be helpful

[Lotus F1]

Originally Posted by kverges

Lotus F1 - read the whole thread and post 3 may be helpful

Excellent! I missed that post..thanks!

[Lotus F1]

I notice the wastegate you mention says speicial low boost at 7psi. I just want to verify. This is 7psi base and not the limit right? I can boost 15-16psi if I adjust it to do so right?