HELP! I need some advise please-Monkey Wrench Racing concerns

[charliex]

i'm not tuning it, i just provided them a better base tune to work from with the emanage.

THE NA maps are too small, and its too far away so you have to make much larger corrections to make it work , plus all the other calibrations are for the NA motor.

better to make small corrections than large ones.

[Bender Rodríguez]

I'm more an advocate of the stand alone solution myself. Not sure how it works out cost wise

[Bender Rodríguez]

Originally Posted by Patricko

You might want to use the search function. It sounds like you are running before you can walk. Do you have any idea how much that will cost? Frank has spent well over $100K to get there

If you are not careful you may be doing a bunch of this and still not have a running car

That amount just seems too ridiculous. I'm sure I'm close to that (still need to go to the dyno) with no where near that much investment. Granted I did most of my work but still.

[charliex]

its for multiple setups, different scs and turbos etc.

[MaineLotus]

IMHO, insist on a face to face meeting at their shop, you're only 180 miles away. Bring a trailer with you, just in case.... Some things are better handled in person and it may help to actually SEE the issues and problems first hand.

[chotto]

Better yet, get Kestrel to go over there and investigate. Back when I lived down the street, I did that for Anthony when he had his problems. I'll probably be in town in a week or so and would be glad to investigate for you.

[dereklburt]

I would be happy if someone would investigate for me. I would run over there but work has been crazy for me. I have not been able to get out before 6pm and that is when they close. It is almost a 3 hour drive. The last few times I have called, I have not been able to talk to Matt who is actually the one working on the car as he has been busy on the dyno recently. It is something I need to take car of and I want to go there in person but I just haven't had the time to go. I also doubt that they would really let anyone check up on things as they didn't even want me in the back of the shop when I was dropping off my car and trying to explain everything.

I appreciate the gesture and sure, I would be happy if someone checked up on it for me. I think I am just going to have to get over there next week. The last I heard, now they are supposed to be waiting on their welder to make a free flow manifold but they do not have ANY time frame on this at all. That was the reason why it was suggested that they put it together the way it was (That and I think they were less than pleased with me for questioning them).

I was on them a little about time as I was worried about winter and they did tell me 2 weeks initially. I also didn't even get to drive my new car as I took it straight to them after buying it. Time isn't so much of a factor any more as winter has now hit Michigan and whether I get my car now or 3 months from now, I will still probably need to rent a trailer. Luckily I have a vehicle to pull it.

I would be fine with the wait if I knew for sure that my car was safe and was reasonably assured that it was actually going to be taken care of and fixed right.

[dereklburt]

Also, as far as getting 400-450whp, I really do not understand why people believe that this would be a $100,000 venture. With a good turbo set up you should be able to just lower the compression with pistons and rods strong enough to handle the power, and add boost. This is provided that it is properly tuned so that you get the proper spark/fuel etc. Adequate intercooler size is also important. Based on the parts etc., the only real expense I can see over a 275hp set up is the engine components. Other than that, a larger turbo is really not much more than a smaller turbo. Maybe an additional $1000 or so, a higher volume fuel pump?, and larger injectors possibly would be needed. I believe that the stock crank is fine. I really can not think of anything else off hand as long as your drivetrain can handle it. Of course, with tuning there is a limit to how much boost you can run without detonation, especially on pump gas. I am not sure where that limit is but MRW reports getting over 500whp out of their MR2 on premium 93 octane. On my side of the state, we only have 91-92 octane and I would want to go a little more conservative but our engine is also a 1.8 vs a 1.6L. I would think that somewhere between 400-450 would be realistic for an additional investment of Under $10,000.

[elise/europa]

Welcome to the tuner world.

Don't worry, it will not better with somebody else... including all name we currectly see down here on, but I don't want to write any name, I don't to push my-self on a corner...

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by dereklburt

I would be fine with the wait if I knew for sure that my car was safe and was reasonably assured that it was actually going to be taken care of and fixed right.

Certainty is a non-existing commodity... You never know if it will all turn out well or not, and your hope that the solution is right around the corner keeps you sucked into the same tuners/mechanics even though they have been working you over.



I have experienced similar problems to you with having shops take EXTENSIVE amounts of time to do minor jobs. I lost my car for the better part of the summer (for FRIVOLOUS issues). Find some guys you can trust to do it right and do it in a timely manner. I wonder if this even exists anymore...

[Aedo]

Originally Posted by dereklburt

Also, as far as getting 400-450whp, I really do not understand why people believe that this would be a $100,000 venture. With a good turbo set up you should be able to just lower the compression with pistons and rods strong enough to handle the power, and add boost. This is provided that it is properly tuned so that you get the proper spark/fuel etc. Adequate intercooler size is also important. Based on the parts etc., the only real expense I can see over a 275hp set up is the engine components. Other than that, a larger turbo is really not much more than a smaller turbo. Maybe an additional $1000 or so, a higher volume fuel pump?, and larger injectors possibly would be needed. I believe that the stock crank is fine. I really can not think of anything else off hand as long as your drivetrain can handle it. Of course, with tuning there is a limit to how much boost you can run without detonation, especially on pump gas. I am not sure where that limit is but MRW reports getting over 500whp out of their MR2 on premium 93 octane. On my side of the state, we only have 91-92 octane and I would want to go a little more conservative but our engine is also a 1.8 vs a 1.6L. I would think that somewhere between 400-450 would be realistic for an additional investment of Under $10,000.

The $100,000 number is what a Lotus owner has reportedly spent getting a reliable and useable 450whp. Along the way to this end result there have been both supercharger and turbo installs, blown motors and lots of dyno time. This is the cost of trail blazing.

This is not a standard mass produced car and therefore tuning houses don't produce standard off the shelf kits - or selections of components. Also being mid engined rather than front packaging is an issue particularly with intercoolers (of whatever configuration).

Before you set off on a course of achieving +400bhp for <$10k spend time reading the FI forum here.

PS: Hope you get your car back soon and can enjoy driving it!

[kverges]

At its simplest level, you just need to meter and measure fuel, spark and air.

A factory ECU spends the vast majority of its time in closed loop and will strive to achieve 14.7; A/F (stoichiometric). Unless you reflash the ECU to affect either maps or scalars or the algorithms, you better not fight this feature with a piggyback as the factory ECU will always take you back to stoich and (I am pretty sure but no one has confirmed for me) set one or more scalars in the ECU such that it offsets fuel delivery everywhere. I do not understand enough about the ECU algorithms or the maps and scalars to even consider tuning at stoichiometric, and in my I just let the factory ECU do its thing in closed loop with very few adjustments. I always make sure the factory ECU is not making big fuel trim adjustments in closed loop, so what I really do is adjust the eManage MAF and fuel maps to keep the factory fuel trims at zeor, with the best idle and driveability I can achieve (you can trade off MAF and fuel trim adjustments by trial and error).

My main tuning is open loop, under boost, where I tune to keep A/F ratio at about 11:1 and to avoid detonation. I also have a map that controls my water injection for further detonation protection and to allow as much ignition timing as the car will tolerate.

The biggest question mark in all of this is dirve by wire and whethere I would want to intercept that signal or just leave it be.

This should all be very basic to the MWR guys, and you can data log both the factory ECU and eManage activites while driving for analysis when tuning. I don't tune on a dyno as I find the car tends to lean out on the street and it is difficult to tune steady state on many dynos. I just get someoen to drive around while I fuss with the computers.

What I do not know is if MWR has ever actually done a Lotus Turbo with some miles on it in the hands of a customer. Ask that and ask for the reference to discuss satisfaction.

I know Charlie can give you many references and has real experience. I am very leery of those who can not. Just throwing money at the car with no specific game plan or good explanation of the problem and solutions is a really bad idea IMO.

[kestrel74]

Originally Posted by dereklburt

I would be happy if someone would investigate for me. .

Well.......I tried.......I pass right by it on my way home from work........I couldn't get much past the front door. They wouldn't let me see it......said ( QUOTE ) " Everything we do here is top secret " At least it wasn't sitting outside ( well out front anyway, I couldn't see out back ).....

[xtn]

I don't think I would take a HASSed car for free.

Keith, I know you have got yours worked out, but you've got countless hours into it, right? Diagnosing, researching, learning, wrench turning.... If somebody was to pay $70/hr to babysit the car for two years testing and tweaking to finally get it running like yours, they could have just bought a FF380 kit instead.

xtn

[Bender Rodríguez]

Originally Posted by kestrel74

Well.......I tried.......I pass right by it on my way home from work........I couldn't get much past the front door. They wouldn't let me see it......said ( QUOTE ) " Everything we do here is top secret " At least it wasn't sitting outside ( well out front anyway, I couldn't see out back ).....

There cars are quick but I doubt they have many *secrets* if any

[dereklburt]

It looks like things may be looking up for me. I called Friday and they told me that the custom manifold came in on Wednesday. He informed me that they finally got their welder to finish it and it looks really good. He was also very polite and professional with me on the phone at that time. He appologized reporting that he is sorry but some of it was out of his hands as he was at the mercy of his suppliers. I can appreciate that, as I said all along, I would not have had a problem if I felt properly informed. Maybe I just caught him on a bad day and maybe they just misspoke.

My hope was restored after talking to him on Friday as he reports the car is almost back together and if everything goes properly, it will be done before Thanksgiving. He also informed me that he was doing some extra work at no charge to make sure that it was right and appologized about the long wait. They also mentioned redoing some of the coolant line clamps and the clamps on the tubing from the turbo to intercooler etc so that I didn't have any issues.(a nice gesture) I will be sure to let all of you know how it turns out. Now that they did my manifold, they may also be a good source for anyone else that has a Hass kit that needs a better manifold.

Derek

[chotto]

You might want to give someone fiduciary rights to investigate on your behalf.

[Smaay]

this is what XS engineering did to me, i dont think the pics work anymore, but basically they destroyed their own turbo and wont own up to it

Here is my XS nightmare!!!! - NewCelica.org Forum

[kverges]

I have many hours into my turbo car, for sure. In retrospect, it could have been done more easily, but this was my first foray into adding a turbo to an Elise and the real problem was the tuning and learning the eManage and the Lotus ECU peculiarities.

The fact that MWR has fabrication nearly done does not warm my heart.

The fab work is simple compared to the tuning.

[charliex]

they've been chatting to me today, so they are working on the car.