LONG! Boost for newbies, my one sided opinion

[kaz]

Here's my very decidedly ONE SIDED point of view on your options to boost your stock Elise/Exige *today, organized around some major topics. As you will read I even have yet to actually sit in a FF car or a Bemani car...having sat in previous well done turboed and SC'ed cars and published information is all I am basing this on. I am a pure amateur in terms of both driving, and my knowledge of automotive engineering:

Hidden Costs:
In order to make sure you are comparing apples to apples and not apricots make sure you realize there are hidden cost gremlins with every option. When the Ronin Tripoint kit came out there was much bruhaha against the Forcefed options due to cost, when you dug a little deeper it started making more sense. Anyone add stuff to this list I will edit, costs are VERY ballpark -you can find cheaper and more expensive. Remember depending on who you go with some or all of things are *extra, and you don't really need any of this stuff, but eventually you may:

-Clutch $400 (installation can run $1000)
-Wideband O2 gauge $400 or so
-Header $1699 from Forcedfed (cheaper ones out there, I wouldn't touch them)
-Oil Pan $500 (I would at least do this)
-Accusump $500 (installation no clue)

-that's a potential $3k-5k additional you could end up spending if you so chose.


Real Options:
You only have 3...soon there may be one or two more, until then only 3 (I am not counting custom Honda swaps or one offs).

1-ForcedFed 275, 340, 380 $8295,$10795 (for 275), price goes north in a hurry for the higher power conversions (these are not kits)
2-Bemani $13k or so
3-Ronin Tripoint various configurations $6500+ sky is limit on what else you do

What do I like/dislike about each of these?

1-FORCEDFED - I have admittedly never been in any of these cars, but I can guess what it feels like.
LIKE:
-I like turbos and BOVs because of the sounds they make, jet sounding stuff is always cool
-power...great efficiency for the energy you put in
-users says little to no lag on this setup, which depending on what camp you live in you believe or don't believe, I imagine like any great turbo setup there is almost no lag, and the impact this has on the system is small. In real world applications I imagine any perception of lag doesn't take the smile off your face.
-I like that there are lots of included parts...the stage 3 275 even now comes with their standalone, you get a header, you get the oil pan, etc.
-proven...plenty of cars on the road, their monster 380 is tearing it up at the track, etc.
-I really like the idea that the standalone can get you multiple tunes based on available gas and temps
-easily upgradeable
DISLIKE:
-In general I don't like all the piping, there is just more going on, more to break, come loose as with any sophisticated system.
-I don't like conceptually knowing there is a mass of air being moved around all that piping, even though again in reality with this system it's probably not a factor at all.
-I don't like how turbos need some cooling down, not a biggie just a hassle to keep some oil flowing for a bit, there are automated ways to do this

2-BEMANI -
LIKE:
-if you live in SoCal installation is local, love that you can go yell at your installer or conversely be happy and get him drunk
-superchargers make progressive power
-supercharger sounds! make sure not to hide with an airbox, get that big ass filter on there and revel in the glorious tonality it makes
-air/water intercooler included
-stock ECU remapped
-headers included (to make room for all that other junk under the trunk lol)
-cool extras like a new water pump, etc.
DISLIKE:
-I don't like air moving out under the front of the car - real world implications are probably small, but I conceptually like knowing my undercarriage is smooth - keep it clean folks
-the installer doesn't live near you most likely, I don't know if he is transportable like Reggie
-I don't like having stuff that's supposed to be cool near stuff that is hot like exhaust pipes near charge coolers - conceptually I don't like this...this has been proven by Jack's post that the effects are small in real world applications, I still don't like it
-I don't like as I have said before, lots of air volume moving through the system - real world applications will probably prove otherwise, but again conceptually just looking at it I don't like all the air in terms of throttle sensitivity.
-at first glance appears costly but why? because of this:

3-RONIN/TRIPOINT -
LIKE:
-if you live in SoCal installation is local, love that you can go yell at your installer or conversely be happy and get him drunk - but this one flies to you too! Reggie may be in Hawaii next
-superchargers make progressive power
-supercharger sounds! make sure not to hide with an airbox, get that big ass filter on there and revel in the glorious tonality it makes
-affordable
-proven from cars I have sat in on the track
-highly modular, lots of additional options to consider, do I get headers? do I use water injection? do I lower cam changeover?
-Xede piggyback works
-simple system, no extraneous air volume, not much to break
DISLIKE:
-no headers or oil pan included
-simple system, no included intercooler
-lots of additional options to consider, do I get headers? do I use water injection? do I lower cam changeover? <-can be a bad thing for many people to have to choose
-takes a bit of active participation to get exactly what you want, lots of options
-Xede is a piggyback, not ideal for some


MY CONCLUSIONS:
between the Ronin/Tripoint and Bemani:
If you even have to ask about money and cost, then you only have one option and that is to get the Ronin kit installed on your bone stock car. It's cheap, it works, been tested at the track and canyons in cali summer heat. You're going to get a fast car with around 240bhp crank as a result. When you get the bug for more there are a million ways to get more power, up to around a safe 10lb pulley with or w/out water injection (as Dave has done w/o WI with some 240 at the *wheels). If you get nutty go ahead and spend the cash on the intercooler - you could get over 310-320 crank at one point, at which point it will become time to open up that engine to fortify it.

If you have no care for tinkering, thinking about options, want an (in my opinion) over-engineered installation that will surely last the abuse you give it, by all means Bemani is all you. I don't like the Rolex comparison as I am much more a Patek P. or IWC guy lol, but I am very sure the cars are fast, and the drop off car and pick it up never having to deal with it again scenario is appealing to people. Over engineered is a good thing as it gives you a safety buffer, sometimes just more breaks. If it were me, I'd go with a turbo instead of this simply because of all the piping, hell might as well go with a turbo at that point and get hyper power. But, again the Bemani's will be as fast as 240-260bhp+ (crank) Elises are supposed to be. Keep in mind this kit uses a larger supercharger than the factory boosted cars or the Ronin - I would assume this is to compensate for the loss in air pressure from piping, and of course running a larger unit lower should get you more efficiency in terms of temperatures too since it's not straining to get you what you need.

This whole situation is going to change based on what Charlie ends up doing...this whole exercise is one of how the car is controlled, and a user editable stock ECU will sway many. Turbo, SC, some new thing, won't matter unless it's controlled properly and it's here that will follow wherever the Charlie wind blows.

NEXT STEPS:

Frank has offered to pay for a Bemani car to get dynoed (though I don't think will be necessary that he pays). What I'd like to see is a small group of cars goes to one facility on the same day to get dynoed, one after the other under the same conditions. If there is someone in LA with a FF 275 we're game. It would be great to get someone like Roland to bring his car since he has I believe a near stock Ronin kit on and hasn't gone with 10lb pulleys or anything like that. Let's all head over and see what real power everyone is getting when the air is cool, and later when it's 101 outside. My prediction is (not counting Frank's one off) that all the cars will hover near each other with say a 15-25bhp discrepancy. 25bhp is a lot of extra power to have, but you aren't going to dust someone both going full throttle and pass them on a short straight - it's torque we're all after. So once the batmobile has its engine back we can use that as a control on the high end lol...

[kaz]

You are indeed correct, the heat exchanger vents to the bottom of the front of the car, the core is not vertical it is horizontal on the floor pan venting to the bottom. Cooled water is then sent back to the core in the back - Again probably doesn't do anything to the car as we are not after land speed records, just not what some are looking for.

[Taxcheat]

Great analysis. I would just differ by saying a piggyback should always be listed under "dislike." If you think more piping in a turbo means there's more that can go wrong, how about having two brains fighting for control of fueling, one of which you do not control?

Hopefully, Charlie will level the field on that point.

Also, the Elise comes from the factory with massive lag. It's hard for a turbo to make it worse. My turbo cars have all spooled by 3000. Stock Elise doesn't spool till 6500.

[JnC]

Originally Posted by kaz

You are indeed correct, the heat exchanger vents to the bottom of the front of the car, the core is not vertical it is horizontal on the floor pan venting to the bottom. Cooled water is then sent back to the core in the back - Again probably doesn't do anything to the car as we are not after land speed records, just not what some are looking for.

Sorry... i deleted my comment cause i wasn't sure what you meant... i'll try to repost.

DISLIKE:
-I don't like air moving out under the front of the car - real world implications are probably small, but I conceptually like knowing my undercarriage is smooth - keep it clean folks

When I first read this I thought you were saying that air was being plumbed to the front of the car, but after I posted I convinced myself you knew all that and you do.

To be honest, as much as we want to believe that the smooth underbelly of the Elise in conjunction with the diffuser creates a venturi effect ... in reality the amount of downforce isn't much at all. IIRC it's on the order of 5-10 lbs. The problem is the fins need to be a lot closer to the road and the car really should be lowered or have diffuser fins that run along the bottom of each side. The Bemani slats to my eye don't seem to disrupt the airflow that much.

What I don't know about the Bemani is if it only relies upon the air underneath the car, or does air enter the mouth and some flow thru the IC?

[Andrikos]

Great synopsis Kaz.
I've been reading about Elise FI kits for a while now and my respect for the FF kit grows by the day.
If I had the kesh, I'd choose that one.

[turbophil]

+1

Only if the wife would let me... gotta tip-toe into this. Clutch and Flywheel, then hair dryer... I wish FF would sell the kit in small lots. As Johnny Cash said, "One piece at a time. It wouldn't cost a dime"...'er atleast she wouldn't realize it cost a dime

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Well I agree with pretty much with what kaz has said.
I would take the 7k I would save and build a ronin engine clone. oh wait...thats what I am doing

as for the Xede being a negative....can a end user edit there bemani tune? ....not to my knowledge

310 hp or 260 hp hmmmmm?

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

I would like to add that I have ridden in a Forcedfed 275.
Top notch and no lag as claimed. It is a very very nice package.

[Purist]

Just thought I'd clarify a common misconception when it comes to forced induction. The terms "lag" and "boost threshold" are often misued. Lag is the time it takes the turbo to respond to changes in throttle. Boost threshold is the RPM required to generate significant boost. No NA car has lag...as soon as you mash down on the gas, you get all the power the car can make at that RPM. The same is true of supercharged cars. Think of it as instantaneous throttle response. Turbo charged cars are the only cars that lag. When you mash down on the gas, it takes some time for the increase in exhaust gas flow to spin up the turbo. Turbos have gotten a lot better in this respect, especially when you get into variable geometry vanes and all that. Both turbos and superhargers, particularly centrifugal superchargers, can have a boost threshold. Positive displacement superchargers (like roots type) typically generate boost from idle (no boost threshold) but tend to run out of steam at high RPM due to their inherant inefficiency. Centrifugal supercharges get more efficient the faster they spin, so they produce the most boost at redline but may require some RPMs before they produce any boost (boost threshold again). Turbos can go either way...a small turbo will produce boost at very low rpm and have less lag, but will limit how much boost they can provide at high rpm. A large turbo may not produce any boost at all until several thousand rpm, but will give you massive power at redline.

Personally, its the lag that has always turned me off from turbos. When I was test driving cars a few years ago I tried the Supra, Z, 3000gt, rx7, and then completely fell in love with the 968 for the way the engine seemed wired to my brain.

I'm curious what people really mean when they say the FF system has little to no lag...do they really mean lag, or are they talking about boost threshold? I don't know if any turbo would ever have low enough lag to satisfy my need for that "wired to the brain" throttle response I'm after.

Cheers,
Tom

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by Purist

Just thought I'd clarify a common misconception when it comes to forced induction. The terms "lag" and "boost threshold" are often misued. Lag is the time it takes the turbo to respond to changes in throttle. Boost threshold is the RPM required to generate significant boost. No NA car has lag...as soon as you mash down on the gas, you get all the power the car can make at that RPM. The same is true of supercharged cars. Think of it as instantaneous throttle response. Turbo charged cars are the only cars that lag. When you mash down on the gas, it takes some time for the increase in exhaust gas flow to spin up the turbo. Turbos have gotten a lot better in this respect, especially when you get into variable geometry vanes and all that. Both turbos and superhargers, particularly centrifugal superchargers, can have a boost threshold. Positive displacement superchargers (like roots type) typically generate boost from idle (no boost threshold) but tend to run out of steam at high RPM due to their inherant inefficiency. Centrifugal supercharges get more efficient the faster they spin, so they produce the most boost at redline but may require some RPMs before they produce any boost (boost threshold again). Turbos can go either way...a small turbo will produce boost at very low rpm and have less lag, but will limit how much boost they can provide at high rpm. A large turbo may not produce any boost at all until several thousand rpm, but will give you massive power at redline.

Personally, its the lag that has always turned me off from turbos. When I was test driving cars a few years ago I tried the Supra, Z, 3000gt, rx7, and then completely fell in love with the 968 for the way the engine seemed wired to my brain.

I'm curious what people really mean when they say the FF system has little to no lag...do they really mean lag, or are they talking about boost threshold? I don't know if any turbo would ever have low enough lag to satisfy my need for that "wired to the brain" throttle response I'm after.

Cheers,
Tom

smaller the turbo faster the spool up. FF package is on boost just as fast as my supercharger. Mine is just more linear.

[Buz]

The only point that I think you were off about is the headers. The 1 or 2 horsepower (probably the same torque) that you make with the FF header over a properly ported flow matched stock header costs an extra $1000 or so. For that money you could add water injection and a higher boost pulley making 20hp and 20lb/ft more power.

[Donelise]

Nice grassroots post except,our parts are not going to fall off any of the Bemani cars....and I don't do drunk.I'll pass the free Dyno info on to one of the 3 owners.
Don.

[Bruce]

Originally Posted by kaz

It would be great to get someone like Roland to bring his car since he has I believe a near stock Ronin kit on and hasn't gone with 10lb pulleys or anything like that.

Kaz, Is Roland the one that has the '05 without the non-learning chip?

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by Bruce

Kaz, Is Roland the one that has the '05 without the non-learning chip?

yep

[Bruce]

Originally Posted by 2-Y-CHROMOSONES

yep

Do you know how it's doing at holding a tune? Is he monitoring it?

[jac]

What did forcefed do to tune the ecu? Isn't it a piggyback system also? It seems to work whatever it is but It still is a bit of a factor yes? I also heard they came up with a newer ECU solution lately.

[Taxcheat]

Originally Posted by 2-Y-CHROMOSONES

as for the Xede being a negative....can a end user edit there bemani tune? ....not to my knowledge

The downside has nothing to do with whether or not the end-user can alter the tune. The problem is having two independent devices controlling air/fuel ratios, timing, etc. It's an act of faith that the stock ECU is going to be properly fooled by the Xede in all circumstances -- that's a significant downside. If you get a perfect tune out of the box, not being able to edit isn't a big deal.

You can probably secure your clam to the chassis with nothing but duct tape and zip ties. Maybe you could drive for 20,000 miles without a problem. But would you want to?

A remapped ECU beats a piggyback any day. If OBD2 compliance is important for staying road legal, it beats a standalone, too.

ForcedFed has a piggyback in the base system and an expensive but powerful standalone as an option.

[LotusBear]

Originally Posted by Purist

Just thought I'd clarify a common misconception when it comes to forced induction. The terms "lag" and "boost threshold" are often misued. Lag is the time it takes the turbo to respond to changes in throttle. Boost threshold is the RPM required to generate significant boost. No NA car has lag...as soon as you mash down on the gas, you get all the power the car can make at that RPM. The same is true of supercharged cars. Think of it as instantaneous throttle response. Turbo charged cars are the only cars that lag. When you mash down on the gas, it takes some time for the increase in exhaust gas flow to spin up the turbo. Turbos have gotten a lot better in this respect, especially when you get into variable geometry vanes and all that. Both turbos and superhargers, particularly centrifugal superchargers, can have a boost threshold. Positive displacement superchargers (like roots type) typically generate boost from idle (no boost threshold) but tend to run out of steam at high RPM due to their inherant inefficiency. Centrifugal supercharges get more efficient the faster they spin, so they produce the most boost at redline but may require some RPMs before they produce any boost (boost threshold again). Turbos can go either way...a small turbo will produce boost at very low rpm and have less lag, but will limit how much boost they can provide at high rpm. A large turbo may not produce any boost at all until several thousand rpm, but will give you massive power at redline.

Personally, its the lag that has always turned me off from turbos. When I was test driving cars a few years ago I tried the Supra, Z, 3000gt, rx7, and then completely fell in love with the 968 for the way the engine seemed wired to my brain.

I'm curious what people really mean when they say the FF system has little to no lag...do they really mean lag, or are they talking about boost threshold? I don't know if any turbo would ever have low enough lag to satisfy my need for that "wired to the brain" throttle response I'm after.

Cheers,
Tom

Excellent reply Tom. I know exactly what you mean when you talk about that "wired to the brain" feeling.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by 2-Y-CHROMOSONES

Well I agree with pretty much with what kaz has said.
I would take the 7k I would save and build a ronin engine clone. oh wait...thats what I am doing

as for the Xede being a negative....can a end user edit there bemani tune? ....not to my knowledge

310 hp or 260 hp hmmmmm?

It's going to cost you a lot more than $7K to build a Ronin clone.

[ChrisB]

Originally Posted by Purist

...
I'm curious what people really mean when they say the FF system has little to no lag...do they really mean lag, or are they talking about boost threshold? ...

Whether they realize it or not, I expect they're talking about both. Given the small turbo and efficient plumbing, it's not surprising. From about 3,000 RPM and up, where we were generally driving, it was like driving a larger displacement NA car. From around 1500 RPM in sixth it pulled very strongly, though traffic was too heavy to watch the boost gauge closely enough to match the positive boost with the RPM. On the dyno runs for Fzust's car (stock and with the FF275), at about 2300 RPM the turbo starts making more power than the NA engine (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...&postcount=12), so the boost threshold is pretty low. As I recall, it was at maximum boost around 3500 RPM.