My FF Exige S engine expired yesterday...

[robains]

Motor finally out ...

Updated pics here

[robains]

Some more updated pics showing the cylinder wall damage...

not good

cylinder #4 and #2 had some scaring

Based on the aluminum specks all over my piston tops, it looks like the motor was doing some SERIOUS detonation.

Humpty Dumpty is apart now, the process of putting it back together should start soon (as soon as I figure what to do about the coolant port in the block).

Rob.

[Chococar]

Hi Rob,

Please tell us about your a/f and spark advance tune. Too lean and/or too much advance for the boost level might be the culprit.

Thanks,

Joe

[robains]

I can't make too much of a comment on the EFI MAPS as I just don't know enough about them to be intelligent. I did however have a few people with considerably more knowledge than I look at the MAPS. I've been told advance/timing was on the conservative side, however there was no real implementation of boost regulation so whatever the 2.5" and 62 can do, it would do for max boost.

I don't know enough on how boost can be regulated using the EFI (overlaps??), but apparently it can be done to some degree. My MAP had no such use of boost regulation. The most likely cause of the detonation was just too much heat caused by too much boost and no amount of fuel or timing retard could prevent detonation.

I did my own flow testing on my 550ci RC injectors and they seem to be good, so I don't think it was as fuel delivery issue. My flow testing was pretty simple, just fill up 10 oz of fuel in a measuring cup, run the injector at specific voltage and time how long it takes to empty to 8 oz. Note any variances in duration across the injectors. I did a visual on spray pattern also, which seemed fine.

The positive side to this is that this has been a great learning process for me and I have communicated and learned much from some great folks along the way.

Now, can anyone help me figure out how to get this out of my old block?

[Chococar]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the info. Who created the a/f and spark advance maps in your EFI? Was it done on your particular car on a dyno? Do you have graphs showing your a/f versus rpm and manifold pressure? Same for spark advance? It may be too early to conclude that it was too much boost for any a/f and spark advance...

Also, I see in your signature that you are spraying water onto (?) or after (?) your intercooler. How is that controlled? Is it possible that your car was tuned for the optimum amount of water spray and you sometimes had less than that?

Sorry I can't help you get that fitting out. As a first step, if you have the parts manual, I suggest you look at the drawing of the part and figure out if it is a press fit or if it is screwed in.

Thanks,

Joe

[Hellspawn]

Originally Posted by robains

I did my own flow testing on my 550ci RC injectors and they seem to be good, so I don't think it was as fuel delivery issue.

Well that eliminates fuel delivery as the culprit. So that leaves, too much boost?

[robains]

Water spray is turned OFF during dyno tune and was tuned on 91 octane. Detonation occurred on 100 octane race gas (full tank) after only 5 laps on the track - water spray was ON, but it was 1st 8 am morning session and temps were mild (78F ambient).

I don't have any real time data for a/f while on track. Tuning was done by FF (about 1 week prior to the event) they might have the a/f data but I don't.

I don't know what else could have triggered this detonation other than excessive heat caused by excessive boost -- like I said, injectors appear to be fine. MAP timing was conservative. So I can't think of anything else that would have caused such massive detonation?? But would be interested in any theories or other possibilities.

When you crank as much boost as this SC can deliver it becomes terribly inefficient after only a few seconds -- might be great for a 1/4 mi run on a cold motor, but who drags a Lotus?? It gets to a point where the SC is generating more heat than can be compensated for and hence no real power gain unless one finds ways to cool down the intake air charge. Stock IC just can't handle it.

Maybe some stock engine can handle the boost from a 2.5" pully, but my car couldn't and didn't. In fact, you can see where cylinder #1 was starting to give up the ghost in addition to #4 with it's wall scaring.

Anyway...I have an EGT on #4 exhaust port now, and a boost gauge, and a better IC, larger pully (3.0") and I will monitor motor #2 VERY CAREFULLY.

The coolant port is pressed into the block -- I'm thinking this is gonna require a visit to Toyota and hopefully I can just buy this part?? (Toyota would not sell me just a butterfly for my Throttle Body - they wanted $1100 for a new TB -- hopefully they'll sell me this part for the block, but who knows)

Rob.

[bgsterling]

Originally Posted by robains

Water spray is turned OFF during dyno tune and was tuned on 91 octane. Detonation occurred on 100 octane race gas (full tank) after only 5 laps on the track - water spray was ON

Rob,

I've been following your thread. You seem to know more about engine issue troubleshooting than me, so I can't really help there. I do have a question for you though. If the car was tuned for 91 octane, why would you run 100 octane? Octane makes gas less explosive. Unless you turned up the boost or increased compression some other way, I don't see the advantage of running the higher octane. It may actually produce less power. I don't see how this could have anything to do with your engine failure, but I was curious why you took the approach of tuning one way and running another.

-Brad

[EBTurbo]

Originally Posted by robains

The coolant port is pressed into the block -- I'm thinking this is gonna require a visit to Toyota and hopefully I can just buy this part??

On the new shorts blocks that we have gotten i was able to remove the port from the old block without any issue. just apply heat and add some visegrips. just make sure not to damage the fitting. I had no troubles at all.

EB Turbo

[Chococar]

Originally Posted by robains

Anyway...I have an EGT on #4 exhaust port now, and a boost gauge, and a better IC, larger pully (3.0") and I will monitor motor #2 VERY CAREFULLY.

Rob,

Thanks for the update.

I have a suggestion for you to consider, especially if things are still apart: if you measure EGT on each cylinder, you will learn about cylinder-to-cylinder variation. You will probably discover that one cylinder is usually the hottest, then you can focus your attention on that one. If you really want to check out your tune, you should check the cylinder-to-cylinder a/f also.

Good luck!

Thanks,

Joe

[robains]

Thanks Joe, good suggestion but for now Cylinder #4 -- have been told it's usually the hottest.

Ran into a BIG problem today damaged in shipping or at Bob Bridge Toyota -- looks like either FedEx dropped the motor or the motor was shipped damaged.

Oh joy, just what I need, another headache like this -- me thinks it'll be a while before I get this sorted out. Glad I caught this BEFORE I started putting everything back on...

Rob.

It's moments like this that I wonder if anyone ever gives a **** about the work they get paid to do...

[Hellspawn]

Wow Robains, you are just getting it from every side! Methinks you have alot of good karma coming your way after having to deal with all this!

[robains]

Last thing I want is a block that clearly has been dropped ... very frustrating. I'll be on the phone to 1st Toyota Parts and/or Bob Bridge Toyota tomorrow AM.

The box it ships in is a Toyota box, but it's not a crate, just has thin pillowed cardboard 2 x 4's on the bottom and smaller one inside the box with some bubble wrap in the box and plastic bag over the block. Not very well packaged from Toyota IMHO.

[turbophil]

Hey Rob-

Man that's terrible

Keep your chin up and make lemonade out of your lemons

Best,

Phil

[robains]

Thanks Phil, it is hard to keep pushing along like this ... this is one problem I can't solve myself. If I can't get good customer service from 1st Toyota Parts then the Lotus will be down for a while.

I'm hoping 1st Toyota Parts will do the responsible thing and ship me a new block and issue a FedEx pickup for the damaged one without any money out of my pocket, that's what they should do ...

But if it turns out to be "oh you need to contact FedEx" -- then I can see this is going to be long drawn out battle with many threats, lawyers, blah blah blah...something I really don't want. I really just wanna get my motor back together and in my car, so I can enjoy it.

Rob.

[MikeW]

I would highly suggest finding out more about the fuels you run. All 91 octane fuels are not the same and all 100 octane fuels aren't either. Start by getting some info on the specific gravity on the race fuel you plan to use and motor and research octane. When the intake charge starts getting hotter, especially in your case, the motor octane becomes much more important than research octane. And if you're tuned for a certain specific gravity fuel and you just toss in any race gas with lower gravity (they can vary widely), guess what will happen? You will have leaned it out a bunch. And some fuels, race fuels included, carry oxygen in addition. VP fuels and others have pretty extensive brochures to help you. By the way, fuels can have varying burn rates independent of octane. Some higher octanes can burn pretty fast so you don't have to run as much ignition lead, yet can be very detonation resistant. That's part of the idea of race gas.

[robains]

Mike, you have to be kidding. Come on. Lets not go down this road. If you want to go on about specific gravity of fuel, then do so, but to suggest a certain gravity of fuel wouldn't have permitted this detonation is really pulling for straws.

Your basically saying "only fill up with XYZ gas" -- yeah that's realistic.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but right now I'm really not in the mood for rocket science type theories. Stuff like "oh you didn't run VP fuel with a specific test gravity at 72 degree day with 30" barom...blah blah ... " -- well that's why it detonated...please don't go down that road.

[darkSol]

Hey Rob, that sucks about the short block... $50 says they dropped the damn thing in shipping. Never had a problem before with them and it's a guarantee that Toyota didn't let that thing leave the factory/distribution center like that.

Damn!

[robains]

It was obviously dropped while in the box as there is box material (cardboard) wedge in the nice big crack. No idea who dropped the box, but to be honest Toyota's box isn't very "protective" considering it's got a 110 lbs worth of short block in it.

Well the big test now is how good is their customer service at resolving this.

[robains]

1st Toyota Parts is sending out a new short block today AND FedEx will come tomorrow to pickup the damaged short block.

Now that's what I call service!

Hopefully FedEx will not damage it again.