My FF Exige S engine expired yesterday...

[turbophil]

You see, all that worry over nothing

Cheers,

Phil

[darkSol]

Originally Posted by robains

1st Toyota Parts is sending out a new short block today AND FedEx will come tomorrow to pickup the damaged short block.

I knew you'd believe me

[robains]

LOL, but it'll set me back a week -- oh well, I have plenty of "cleanup" work to do on the car between now and when it arrives. Think I'll still be able to make the Infineon event in early Nov...heck I've still got Hoosiers that look brand new along with my race pads.

Found out a few more "issues" around my clutch pilot bearing -- supposed to be grease on the shaft, there is none -- supposed to be grease on the fork pivot, there is none (dry as a bone) ... hmmmm ... might explain why my clutch kept dragging.

Better rush out and get my fuel gravity test equipment -- just having a hard time getting the gas station attendant to open up their tanks so I can test it before I pump -- I mean I'm sure my tune is only good for a specific gravity of .754 plus or minus .01 - could spell disaster. Now that's what I call "tuning on the edge"?

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by robains

Mike, you have to be kidding. Come on. Lets not go down this road. If you want to go on about specific gravity of fuel, then do so, but to suggest a certain gravity of fuel wouldn't have permitted this detonation is really pulling for straws.

Your basically saying "only fill up with XYZ gas" -- yeah that's realistic.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but right now I'm really not in the mood for rocket science type theories. Stuff like "oh you didn't run VP fuel with a specific test gravity at 72 degree day with 30" barom...blah blah ... " -- well that's why it detonated...please don't go down that road.

I'm saying that lean mixtures can increase heat and cause detonation. Ever run karts and lean them out and stick a piston? Sure, you can have too much boost and detonate too. Same thing, heat. The range of VP fuel gravity you might find at the track ranges from .722 to .800, quite a difference. For example, a car that was tuned on a fuel with .800 and switched to a .722, will be almost 10% leaner. That's why people read plugs and have widebands. I was just trying to pass on some info. But since you don't seem to appreciate it or believe it, you can learn the hard way. Remember.you're the one who posted the thread and seemed to want some input.

[robains]

No that is not correct -- 100 octane race fuel will range from .790 to .800. 91 octane will range from .722 to .760 -- pending ambient temp, humidty, elevation, etc..

Karts for the most part are 2 stroke and rev to 13,000 - 15,000 rpm. And yes I have stuck a piston -- twice, errr...three times. On Karts you get an audioable lean pop during shifts. I've run 98 - 110 octane in a Kart with very little difference in jetting, plug burn and piston check after a chop all was fine -- measuring air density and temp with a race quality weather station -- I had an EGT on my Kart also, 1250 was the sweet spot. Not to mention you mix 6-8oz of OIL in a with the 1 gallon of race gas in a two stroke. These are worlds apart from a 4 stroke 4 cylinder supercharged gasoline engines.

If the 100 octane was "bad gas" that day, then every pushed EVO, STi, and whatever else car was out there would have detonated also ... but they didn't.

So are you suggesting I bring a gravity tester along whenever I go to gas station?

What exactly am I learning? That I can never trust any gasoline from anywhere ever and must gravity test every fill up and then retune the car every time? How is this helpful to me or anyone?

I appreciate input from you and anyone, but this sounds more like unverifiable cop out and if logic dictates, it would be pointless for anyone to dyno tune their car -- because they would never know what the specific gravity was for the gas that day and the chances of finding the same gravity gas are pretty slim.

Like I said, if a car is tune on the edge like that, then we better all pack our bags and go home.

[MikeW]

Originally Posted by robains

No that is not correct -- 100 octane race fuel will range from .790 to .800. 91 octane will range from .722 to .760 -- pending ambient temp, humidty, elevation, etc..

Here's 2 100 octanes from VP:

Streetblaze 100 Oxygenated specific gravity .746 @ 60 deg. F
Motorsports 100 Oxygenated specific gravity .746 @ 60 deg F

Here are a few other unleaded from VP
Streetblaze 101 Oxygenated specific gravity .800 @ 60 deg F
Motorsports 101 Oxygenated specific gravity .800 @ 60 deg F
Motorsports 109 Oxygenated specific gravity .722 @ 60 deg F

There's 11 domestics in unleaded and 5 international unleadeds.
Domestics are rated at 60 deg F, internationals are rated at 15 deg C



Karts for the most part are 2 stroke and rev to 13,000 - 15,000 rpm. And yes I have stuck a piston -- twice, errr...three times. On Karts you get an audioable lean pop during shifts. I've run 98 - 110 octane in a Kart with very little difference in jetting, plug burn and piston check after a chop all was fine -- measuring air density and temp with a race quality weather station -- I had an EGT on my Kart also, 1250 was the sweet spot. Not to mention you mix 6-8oz of OIL in a with the 1 gallon of race gas in a two stroke. These are worlds apart from a 4 stroke 4 cylinder supercharged gasoline engines.

Still similar enough to be damaged from heat from lean mixtures, however, right?



If the 100 octane was "bad gas" that day, then every pushed EVO, STi, and whatever else car was out there would have detonated also ... but they didn't.

First off, I don't believe that I ever said your engine was definitely the result of running lean, did I? My point was to show that fuels vary, both in specific gravity and burn characteristics and it's something that should be considered. I assumed you didn't want to go through the same thing twice if running lean was the cause or part of the cause. The fact that your car detonated (you said it, I merely suggested it) has nothing to do with other cars out there. If 4 strokes and 2 strokes are worlds apart, then so are supercharged engines with 11.5 compression and the other cars you offer as example that likely have quite different engines. You likely wouldn't expect to see others with problems unless they were identical to you.

So are you suggesting I bring a gravity tester along whenever I go to gas station?

When I went to the VP fuel trailer, I asked for the brochure when I handed them the credit card. Alllthe info was there. Simple enough.

What exactly am I learning? That I can never trust any gasoline from anywhere ever and must gravity test every fill up and then retune the car every time? How is this helpful to me or anyone?

Anytime you stress an engine beyond it's intended design you take risks. If you want to take the time to pay attention to these things, then you can put them out of your mind and not have to consider what went wrong down the road and suffer the consequences if you don't. Certainly having a functioning wideband display in the car is worth it to a lot of people who spent a lot of money for the car in the first place. If you think this is nonsenses, it's your right. I have to think that others would find this helpful, that's why they buy widebands.

I appreciate input from you and anyone, but this sounds more like unverifiable cop out and if logic dictates, it would be pointless for anyone to dyno tune their car -- because they would never know what the specific gravity was for the gas that day and the chances of finding the same gravity gas are pretty slim.

People who really take the time to study engines, fuel and related things do indeed pay attention to the fuel they run. Others figure that all fuels are the same and grab some fuel and go. If you take a stock engine a 190 hp Lotus 2zz, the tuning is sufficient to deal with most things you are likely to encounter. When you push the limits with a high compression engine and boost and added heat, then you have to be pretty sure everything is right.

Like I said, if a car is tune on the edge like that, then we better all pack our bags and go home.

Or if your car is on the edge, it would be of beneficial to know it and how to avoid unnecessary problems.

[robains]

I understand your point Mike, but there is very little that can be realistically done about variance in fuel gravity. Buying fuel from the same source is NO guarantee of the gravity.

No gas or tune in the world could have reduced the IAT that a 2.5 pully and 62 were producing. A dyno does NOT duplicate the environment of a track even with multiple back to back pulls after heat soak has set in.

What will have a better chance at saving motor #2 is real time data logging as I drive the car (either on track or on the street). With my EGT and IAT hooked into my IQ3 dash (and alarm points set) and monitored carefully, I think this is by far a more realistic approach to working with the contents of the gasoline I pump into the car. I may get a wideband in eventually, but I preffer EGT and IAT as widebands do flucuate in quality and durability and do need frequent recalibration and/or replacement.

Regardless of who actually produces the gasoline (even VP) there is NO guarantee that you get what you want in terms of specific gravity. I ran a Kart race and got almost DQ'd because my gasoline mix was not legal, turns out the fuel supplier made a mistake and had 110 in 98 cans -- fortunately almost everyone suffered the DQ and hence why the new cans were tested.

As I understand it EFI can and does adjust for such variances -- but it can only adjust so far.

For reference, Thunderhill provide Sunoco racing fuel 91 unleaded, 100 unleaded, 110 Leaded and now 112 leaded. link to specific gravity their 100 unleaded is a little low but certainly within tolerances.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

I understand your point Mike, but there is very little that can be realistically done about variance in fuel gravity. Buying fuel from the same source is NO guarantee of the gravity.

No gas or tune in the world could have reduced the IAT that a 2.5 pully and 62 were producing. A dyno does NOT duplicate the environment of a track even with multiple back to back pulls after heat soak has set in.

What will have a better chance at saving motor #2 is real time data logging as I drive the car (either on track or on the street). With my EGT and IAT hooked into my IQ3 dash (and alarm points set) and monitored carefully, I think this is by far a more realistic approach to working with the contents of the gasoline I pump into the car. I may get a wideband in eventually, but I preffer EGT and IAT as widebands do flucuate in quality and durability and do need frequent recalibration and/or replacement.

Regardless of who actually produces the gasoline (even VP) there is NO guarantee that you get what you want in terms of specific gravity. I ran a Kart race and got almost DQ'd because my gasoline mix was not legal, turns out the fuel supplier made a mistake and had 110 in 98 cans -- fortunately almost everyone suffered the DQ and hence why the new cans were tested.

As I understand it EFI can and does adjust for such variances -- but it can only adjust so far.

For reference, Thunderhill provide Sunoco racing fuel 91 unleaded, 100 unleaded, 110 Leaded and now 112 leaded. link to specific gravity their 100 unleaded is a little low but certainly within tolerances.

Rob

If you do not have a wideband Lambda already I highly advise that you use one. The EFI is able to read AEM, Innovate LC1, DynoJet, AFX, and NGK so you have options. This will allow the ECU to have more valid authority over the mixtures. I agree onboard EGTs would be helpful as well.

If your dash will support a data stream directly from the ECU we should look into that to save you on redundant wiring and sensors.

I've been kind of behind on keeping up with all your findings, but just wanted to shoot over some brief comments nonetheless.

Kris

[robains]

Kris, I believe the kit does indeed come with a wideband -- well it certainly looks like it does because I have a wire that is labeled "lambda" that was going into what does look like a wideband sensor that went into my exhaust pre-cat. Looking at the FF kit here in the upper right that looks like a wideband to me. Should I be sending this away to validate it's accuracy?

Hmmm...maybe I don't have a wideband ...

* Optional Wideband Lambda control v. Narrowband Lambda ONLY

I know some people don't like EGTs, but for me, they're great warning sensors -- the one I have I believe monitors every 50 milliseconds. That should be fast enough to respond to changes beyond "normal".

RacePak have told me they use CanBus ... but it wasn't clear if it is compatible or if they have a module that will make it compatible. I do have a universal box for the IQ3, but that is to monitor analog type voltage changes from existing sensors, not a digital line -- which I think is what the CanBus is??

But I will maintain, that if I have to monitor a fuels specific gravity every time I fill up the tank, then having anything beyond stock is gonna be way to much work for me -- implications for that are that I'll go back to 100% stock (aka no EFI). I don't mind taking calculated risks, but if the risk is so closely tied to the specific gravity of fuel that could vary greatly at each fill up, then yeah, it's a risk not worth taking at all. I'm willing to bet that not many people here with modified engines even have a specific gravity testing unit.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by robains

Kris, I believe the kit does indeed come with a wideband -- well it certainly looks like it does because I have a wire that is labeled "lambda" that was going into what does look like a wideband sensor that went into my exhaust pre-cat. Looking at the FF kit here in the upper right that looks like a wideband to me. Should I be sending this away to validate it's accuracy?

Hmmm...maybe I don't have a wideband ...

I know some people don't like EGTs, but for me, they're great warning sensors -- the one I have I believe monitors every 50 milliseconds. That should be fast enough to respond to changes beyond "normal".

RacePak have told me they use CanBus ... but it wasn't clear if it is compatible or if they have a module that will make it compatible. I do have a universal box for the IQ3, but that is to monitor analog type voltage changes from existing sensors, not a digital line -- which I think is what the CanBus is??

But I will maintain, that if I have to monitor a fuels specific gravity every time I fill up the tank, then having anything beyond stock is gonna be way to much work for me -- implications for that are that I'll go back to 100% stock (aka no EFI). I don't mind taking calculated risks, but if the risk is so closely tied to the specific gravity of fuel that could vary greatly at each fill up, then yeah, it's a risk not worth taking at all. I'm willing to bet that not many people here with modified engines even have a specific gravity testing unit.

I agree that it would be silly to have to worry about specific gravity tests just to run your car. Your engine should not be in a state of tune where this will "make or break it". I think the guy who was sharing his knowledge about the fuels was just trying to be helpful. The bottom line we need to make sure you have a safe map that is not on the edge. We can discuss that in more detail later.
Kris

[robains]

Cleaned up the head today while waiting for my 2nd new short block to arrive.

Couple of the valve caps did come off, thanks for the warning Phil. Exhaust ports took some serious cleaning, ugh they were gunked up with burnt oil. Valves appear to be fine and no damage anywhere.

I was searching the manual and couldn't find any references to using any type of sealant on the head surface -- so I'm just planning to use a new head gasket which does have a thin layer of black "stuff" (technical term) bonded to the metal gasket.

Rob.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by robains

Cleaned up the head today while waiting for my 2nd new short block to arrive.

Couple of the valve caps did come off, thanks for the warning Phil. Exhaust ports took some serious cleaning, ugh they were gunked up with burnt oil. Valves appear to be fine and no damage anywhere.

I was searching the manual and couldn't find any references to using any type of sealant on the head surface -- so I'm just planning to use a new head gasket which does have a thin layer of black "stuff" (technical term) bonded to the metal gasket.

Rob.

Cool Rob!

Sorry for being MIA over the past week... had one or two fires to put out at work

Looks like you're on the road to progress...

No special sealer for the HG. Just put it on and go...

You may want to paint the block if you want to keep it looking good as that bare aluminum will build up surface deposits in short order and will look like your old engine... Nit picky, since you can't see much of the engine, but "I'm just say'in"

Best,

Phil

[robains]

Pimp my ride -- Gray, Lotus Green, or Blue or Red... choices ... dang, maybe I should paint the valve cover while I'm at it ...

Well the old engine did have that issue with the original water spray that was just dumping water (not spraying it) on the engine/tires followed by my rapid departure into the dirt at 100+ at ButtonWillow.

[robains]

Update pics of engine assembly

It's finally going back together ... I think the most time consuming part is cleaning everything.

Rob

[robains]

Motor is finally back in the car now.

more install updated pics

[turbophil]

[jallingt]

Have I missed something in this thread? Have you determined what may have been the major factor in your engine failure? I saw you mentioned the 2.5" pulley (I assume S/C pulley), I have also heard the rings (stock) hold well until about 275 crank HP then they start to go.
What do ya'll think?

[robains]

2.5" pully causing excessive heat which in turn caused detonation. You can see the obvious copious amounts of detontation on the pistons from the pics I posted. Those metalic sprinkles on the pistons is aluminum that gets "detached" and redistributed when detonation starts in.

It's not the rings, they hold up just fine. It's the heat that the 2.5" pully generated from the M62. It's a suicide kit on a stock motor IMHO.

Hope to post more pics today with the motor running -- fingers crossed.

[Bavarian Motorist]

What's the estimated time of completion??


Will you run it stock for a while?

[robains]

Found some more install issues with FF "Power Package" - connector to EFI lambda from the pre-cat narrow band O2 sensor -- one of the gold male connector prongs was NOT locked into place in the 4 prong connector. End result was the prong being pushed back when connecting the narrow band O2 sensor. Turns out it was the white/black signal wire the EFI uses ... not good. So there probably was NO AFR adjustment happening at all.

Completion schedule:
1. Moroso pan Monday night
2. Throttle Body Tuesday night
3. Cat/Muffler and fluids (coolant/oil) in Wednesday night
4. RLS IC Thursday night (need to modify IC bracket)
5. Prime and test start Friday night

some more pics

Notice that the RC 550 injectors really don't fit -- the connectors will never "lock" in place as they press against the head.

If anyone has any idea where the two wires go in my pics, please let me know -- I have no idea why FF cut these and left them dangling with NO protection on the ends (aka they could have be touch chassis/ground). They feed into whatever the device is behind the wires.

Thanks, Rob.