Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[Demonized]

Interested in a kit for a non-SC'd Elise.

[Stale_Hotdog]

Originally Posted by EliseAtLeast

Will there be a package for Exige S? Curious as to the cost and also installation.

+1 just showing my interest in the upgrade

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by charliex

good work phil, but why are you only getting 225/148 with a base katana at 10PSI and no cat ? Am i missing something obvious.

CX- I don't think you're missing anything, that's just what she laid down... Both Darksol and I had similar figures with our 10psi pulleys on the same dyno- same day. AFRs were fine at the time- that was before we all discovered the longterm big no-no pulley swap issue... At anyrate, Dark's car always had about 5 ponies more than mine since he had better headers and TB, etc... Last we checked (dyno'd) his car, he still had about the same power with the 3.4 pulley as well... The second chart showing about 241hp was still with the 10psi pulley, but I pulled the stops out and made that power by tuning for the "CA" intake (read, KN filter on the end of a tube) and adding some timing on the lower half of the pull... Based on that observation, the stock intake is a bottleneck- it just has to be tuned for if changed. Not sure if the Cup intake will fix that with tuning or not (simply meaning, not sure if the Cup intake flows enough add'l air over stock)... Different discussion for a different thread though...

Originally Posted by robains

Well, 500 hp from it? What's the realistic max before it becomes inefficient?

I don't think so... Well maybe. I know it's got the air for 400whp with an IC and built engine and still be within it's efficient window- But I'd be surprised if 450 or 500 is...

I've maxed the 440s out doing the 175wtq. I should have 550s sitting on the step when I get home tonight. My plan is to go ahead and pulley down to raise the boost to 12-14psi. If the charge temps stay within reason, then I should be at or close to 300whp and 200wtq. That will probably be it for me until an IC comes into play- if ever... Charge temps will be the deciding factor here. I'll add boost until they get funky and call it good.

The engine is a stock OEM Toyota short block with the 9:1 Mahle drop ins, so I built it for higher boost. The 10psi exercise that I posted here was to see what the blower could do for the high compression motors, as we know 10psi at reasonable charge temps is "runnable" on 91 gas and high compression. In all good theory, the higher comp motors (stock) should push the same if not a bit more HP than I did, as you certainly don't need 9:1 to run 10psi boost (as I've demonstrated with my old M62 setup). Again, I ran the same timing with this TVS 10psi as I did with the M62 at 10psi. THe M62 was bolted up to my stock compression engine. That means that I could have ran more timing with the TVS due to the lower compression and lower charge temps...

In otherwords, in *general*, assuming the same fuel, timing advance is a function of cylinder pressure and RPM. I had less cylinder pressure with the colder air and lower static compression, so I should have been running more timing to get peak power... Only concern at this point is if the 440 injectors have enough juice to get more power... It's questionable as the 440s are -just- big enough... Two more high compression cars are getting the TVS soon and they will be good reference points as well...

Best,

Phil

[ozracer]

Awesome results phil it really is impressive how far the Lotus community has come with charging over the last 12 months....

Im glad I waited and didnt jump at the bwr offer I had a feeling things were gonna get better...

[robains]

Thanks for update Phil. Are you stopping at 300 whp because of chassis or something else?

Bring it out to CA so you can run on some tracks with me

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by charliex

I'm remarking about your 'costly' statement, a reflash from me for these types of kits costs $600 base, thats it nothing else is needed, it'll be safer and have as much power as the standalone stuff, and it'll pass sniffer and OBD II, you need an efi standalone, a harness, and tuning, which is considerably more, yes you can retune to your hearts content and if thats your goal you ought to install a standalone, but it'll cost a lot more in the long run.

i charge $100 ph at the dyno, for the intial tuning, if its not right or needs tweaking, i don't charge addtional fees, even if it needs a few times , i don't charge for street tuning either, and other people get the benefit of any custom tuning since i can provide those updates, the last time i did that it was $25.

i think those going the way of a standalone are being true to the spirit of the hacker, and i wholly support that, but as with life you're taking a tiny percentile.

I just don't see where you get 'costly' from, thats all

In other words...




Charlie is God...



And a great guy to do business with!

[dvl boy]

I will purchase, once there is an Exige S solution. Great job!!!

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by robains

Thanks for update Phil. Are you stopping at 300 whp because of chassis or something else?

Bring it out to CA so you can run on some tracks with me

Would love to come out, it's only 20 hours or so drive! How about you bring your car to Kansas

The 300whp is just a guess... I'll add power until the charge temps start climbing out of control... The 4 lobe twin vortecies simply move air so much cooler/efficiently than the M62, that I'm hoping I can keep charge temps below 200F at even 12-14psi in 70 degree environment and fullly heat soaked (or atleast as much as I can get without being ont he track). If I can't hit 300 w/o an IC, then I can't- no big deal. The car is quite quick and very responsive as it sits with only 10psi boost...

The M62 would certainly have been in the 300*F charge temp arena at that 12-14 psi pressure (using my equipment), as it was pushing 240+ at just 10psi with ~70 degree temps. The TVS is only pushing 175 at 70 degree temps and it has less drag (drag: as advertised by the manufacturer, I have no way to substantiate this...)... Again, both in fully heat-soaked states. I'm only looking for a delta T here, as everyone's sensors seems to give different readings....

Thank goodness for a climate controlled dyno room. Winter is coming into the midwest! I'm relentless on the rollers. I drive the car hard before I get to the dyno and then do several pulls back to back without shutting the car down. I tune with the car idling every two pulls typically. Then pull a couple times and tune again. The guys at the dyno said I've got the second most pulls of all their customers, just short of the owner... That's hillarious... I think I'll get him knocked off his horse by next weekend

Back on topic, fortunately, I've got sensors all over the car and data logging ability, so I'll be able to see these temps very accurately as I strive for a track safe 300whp on a non-ICed TVS... I've got my glass half full, as I think it's doable without pushing it too hard

Best,

Phil

[Bavarian Motorist]

As long as charge temperatures remain reasonable, should reliability be a problem?

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

As long as charge temperatures remain reasonable, should reliability be a problem?

You mean reliability of the engine? Should be. At 10psi, I know charge temps are fine and safe... I bet more safe temps than the M62 at 7 psi... I know Fred has like 370whp on his stock 2ZZ in his XP car, but he runs 112 race gas and auto crosses and the engine is still holding strong... I doubt our engines will last long at that power on the race track... But that's just speculation...

Point is that 275whp should be OK on the stock engine with a tune that doesn't detonate...


Best,

Phil

[Johnny B]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

In other words...




Charlie is God...

No, Charlie is Santa Claus.

[jlj3394]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Would love to come out, it's only 20 hours or so drive! How about you bring your car to Kansas

Best,

Phil

Don't forget - I did it in 17...without any boost.

[Bavarian Motorist]

I'd drive to Kansas for this...

[shay2nak]

Originally Posted by EliseAtLeast

Will there be a package for Exige S? Curious as to the cost and also installation.

Originally Posted by dvl boy

I will purchase, once there is an Exige S solution. Great job!!!

I am interested in Exige S drop-in also.

What is the gain over the stock boost? Same 30 hp? I'm already at 240whp and will probably be around 265whp by the end of the year (depends when my headers get in) on stock boost and stock injectors. The last thing I want to do is to raise the boost. How much will just the SC cost?

thanks

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by jlj3394

Don't forget - I did it in 17...without any boost.

Hehehe, we need to fix that boost problem! How about on Sunday

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

I'd drive to Kansas for this...

Would you like directions?

Originally Posted by shay2nak

....The last thing I want to do is to raise the boost...

What brings you to that conclusion?


Best,

Phil

[Smoky]

This is excellent Phil. So glad to hear good news amidst all the BS going on in the world/market/etc.

I'd be interested in a plug-and-play kit for the Exige S. I'd like to see the full meal deal in one stop: blower, ECU w/ tune, headers... all the nuts and bolts...you get the idea. The more it becomes just a matter of my finding time to do the install the more interested I become. The less likely I have to hit a dyno for tuning then my pants start to get tight over the idea of such a complete kit.

How does the stock 2ZZ hold up to the boost? Are gaskets, studs, or any other fortification items recommended?

I'm not looking to do any bottom-end or piston work. I'd be willing to update the cams and injectors as long as the ECU solution accounted for it. Like I've always said I'm not looking to squeeze out every drop of whp... but if I can get a good chunk out of it, and have a complete and reliable kit then that's good nuff for me.

Looking forward to hearing pricing.

Thanks Phil! This is going to be very, very good.

[sfelise]

Wow this is great!

Any chance of figuring out a kit with Exige manifolds for the Elise?

[spf4000]

Phil, are you still running a stock fuel pump, or did you upgrade already?

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Smoky

This is excellent Phil. So glad to hear good news amidst all the BS going on in the world/market/etc....
...How does the stock 2ZZ hold up to the boost? Are gaskets, studs, or any other fortification items recommended? ....
...I'm not looking to do any bottom-end or piston work...
...Thanks Phil! This is going to be very, very good.

Thanks for the kind words Smoky Stock 2ZZ has excellent head bolts and gakets- no problems there. Lower end and pistons should be fine. That said, the pistons are known to be the weak link in this engine...

Effective compression ratio is still just over 19:1 and that's still within the reasonable range for a high-tec, high output engine on pump gas. Several S's and even hotair M62 kits (like the one I used to have, Dave, Jim, etc) have built a pretty solid history of running this type of compression on this engine with pump gas. We'll be doing it with cooler charge temps now, however...

Originally Posted by spf4000

Phil, are you still running a stock fuel pump, or did you upgrade already?

Stock- Although I've got a slick litte trick that I'll post about later to give your fuel system a nice bump in output...

Originally Posted by sfelise

Wow this is great!

Any chance of figuring out a kit with Exige manifolds for the Elise?

Thanks Eric!
I guess. If I can shoe-horn it in such a way that it fits the Exige S, it will fit the Elise with those same manifolds...


You guys are wearing my fabbing fingers to the bone here!

Best,

Phil

[robains]

But Phil, it's sunny and 80 degrees here in SF/Bay Area and it's gonna be 90 when I go to SoCal tomorrow ... ugh!! Yeah, it's November, I know. Besides, I don't think the Kansas locals will like seeing CA plates in their state Oh, and we have many road courses to choose from - I can think of 6 right now (Willow Spring, Fontana, ButtonWillow, Infineon, Laguna Seca, Thunderhill), sure there are more.