Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[MaineLotus]

Originally Posted by sleepe

Is it necessary to swap-out the oem oil pump gear to the CircuitWorx variety for the TVS? At what power level is the gear necessary? Why do they fail?

They are about $200,,,so not cheap! (just for the steel gears)
-Robert

Not really a power level replacement item - the OEM oil pump gear has been known to break at high RPMs. The CircuitWorx gear is suppose to correct that problem.

[fzust]

Originally Posted by sleepe

Is it necessary to swap-out the oem oil pump gear to the CircuitWorx variety for the TVS? At what power level is the gear necessary? Why do they fail?

They are about $200,,,so not cheap! (just for the steel gears)
-Robert

No. It isn't a power level issue as much as an RPM/Harmonic issue. I ran stock oil pump gear on my XP car for 3 years at 325RWHP. I didn't rev above 8500 though. If you lighten up the rotating assembly or rev above 8500, it is probably a good idea.

[fzust]

How many people would step up for a reflashed tune? Do you need 91 Octane or 93 Octane tune? Target power with a reflash would be minimum 255-260RWHP.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by fzust

How many people would step up for a reflashed tune? Do you need 91 Octane or 93 Octane tune? Target power with a reflash would be minimum 255-260RWHP.

255-260 with stock fuel pump? What about with the better pump?

[robains]

I asked Kris how many failures he has encountered, he said "one". I don't have any specific failure counts beyond that. I'm not gonna discourage changing the oil pump gears -- but I would need to see and know more about exactly how and why the stock gears failed.

I do know that when rebuilding a motor there are a couple of oil pump dowls/pins that do NOT come in new short block and have to be ordered from the dealer (why they just don't come with a short block is beyond me). These dowls/pins are provide additional strength and support to keep the oil pump casing rigid. It is pretty easy to miss or forget these dowls/pins when rebuilding a motor (and sometimes they can just fall out).

Even the 2ZZ service manual doesn't show the pins.

Interesting read on the CircuitWorx gears

So my conclusion -- none, I just don't have enough information to make a conclusion. Sorry.

Rob.

[fzust]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

255-260 with stock fuel pump? What about with the better pump?

Might be with a stock fuel pump, might be uprated. With a tune for everyone in an ECU, you need to leave power on the table. Additionally, this doesn't account for headers, intake etc.

[willhogan]

I noticed those oil pump dowel pins last night when swapping everything over from my old block... Was about to say F$CK it but decided they must be there for a reason. Have a set on order from Toronto... Why the block does not come with those or that hose union on the starter side is beyond me...

[robains]

Willhogan,

My thoughts exactly, considering the tolerances of the gear in the casing and it's potential rotation speed I would dare say even the smallest movement in the casing (without the pins) could cause some nasty premature wear and ultimate gear self destruction. A real easy item to overlook or skip, I figured I'd wait for the $2 parts to arrive from Toyota.

Agree on the hose union also.

Rob.

[jim-clayton]

Originally Posted by willhogan

I noticed those oil pump dowel pins last night when swapping everything over from my old block... Was about to say F$CK it but decided they must be there for a reason. Have a set on order from Toronto... Why the block does not come with those or that hose union on the starter side is beyond me...

Pull the pins from the old block. They come right out.

[ZAMMY1]

dang! that's why you get the BIG money!
sam

[turbophil]

Yep, pins are cake to use the old ones...

Rob- I've already started a DL Center on my site for just such a thing... It needs work, disclaimers, more files, etc... but you get the idea... For anyone reading this, the files (including firmware and wiring changes are for SUPERCHARGED CARS ONLY. Instructions and files are different for the Turbo cars!!!!)

Later,

Phil

[robains]

Phil,

Cool, I'll not duplicate your efforts then.

Rob.

[turbophil]

Hey no sweat here... Duplicate all ya want. The more the merrier

Happy weekend,

Phil

[vao4v]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Do you have BWR upgrade kits without EFIs, Phil? I'm so impatient

Seems he's still waiting for PES??? to come through with a flash.

Originally Posted by rstutts

Has it been determined if there is an upgrade for a BWR s/c and if so, how much?
Early on, at the introduction of BOE Supercharger, it was hinted that the price would be around $3000.00 for the BWR upgrade. Think it may have included the projected flash.

Also, has it been determined whether a reflash of the ECU can be done instead of going all out with a EFI?
It can be, but it seems that the only 2 people in the car world to be able to do it are PES and Charlie.
Just had a couple of questions, in between beers!

fzust; How many people would step up for a reflashed tune?

I would think that the majority of upgrades would be a reflash. Customers are already into the kit for around $4000 more or less. So, with an additional $5800 you're talking almost 10 grand for an EFI setup. That's lot's of $$ especially when you can buy GM stock for under $2.00 and the market is down 6,500 give or take, points. Not exactly a seller's market. My college loan is a joke, instead of owing multi-thousands I think I've dropped down to $58.12. Don't I wish.

Do you need 91 Octane or 93 Octane tune?

Keep it the way the majority of the setups were 91 octane.

Target power with a reflash would be minimum 255-260RWHP.

As BavMotor. eluded to, with a 255 Walbro, 280 rwhp seems to be the accepted number for both the BOE and VF kits. Beyond that $$ upgrades need to take place.

It would seem that since both kits can deliver around the same power numbers (being on the safety edge of ka-boom at 280 rwhp) and around the same intake charge temps, the bottom line or deciding factor just may lie in the dollars spent. Or to put it another way, "Bang for the Buck."

At this point there is a front runner, bringing all of the above factors into play and keeping "flash" at the forefront. And that's not the way a lot of folks expected it to be.

[E7L]

Is anyone with a TVS system planning on going to LOG29?

[kortik]

Does it fit 2zz Mr2Spyder

[cain-it]

Fred asked the question if people would be interested in a re-flash version (PES ? Charlie X?) of the TVS... well here's my answer :

I've got the standard (stage 1) BWR set-up (Charlie X tune), it's been running for about 6 months, I'm really happy with it... but more would be great . So I have 3 options :

1) VF Intercooled SC up-grade
BWR -> VF Stage 1: $2900 (280 RWHP / 176 lbft = 50 RWHP / 25 lbft Gain)
BWR -> VF Stage 2: $3400 (295 RWHP / 190 lbft = 65 RWHP / 39 lbft Gain)

Complete VF package Vs complete BWR package = + $2300/+2400. Therefore the up-grade path is costing $600 to $1000 extra + car off the road + labour + freight compared to buying VF in the 1st place. (exc. the need for the up-rated clutch)

2) TVS SC up-grade
BWR -> TVS with EFI: $5500 (275 RWHP / 177 lbft = 45 RWHP / 25 lbft Gain)
BWR -> TVS with reflash: $??? (255/260 RWHP / ? lbft = 30 RWHP / ? lbft Gain)

Ouch! As an upgrade, for similar gains to the VF Stage 1, the TVS/EFI solution is almost X2 the cost... based on this, it would be better to sell the BWR set-up complete and start afresh by adding the missing items like manifold / brackets etc. Because the cost is pushed-up by the EFI and the TVS has the capacity for more power, I think this solution is more orientated to those would want to go down the built motor route and keep playing / remapping for headers / low CR pistons etc... (not me, I'd prefer to install one time and drive more than tinker )

I'm sure the TVS + reflash could be a much more economic solution, however the cost:gains would need to be similar to VF Stage 1 and Fred is suggesting from his post, it will be lower powered...

3) BWR Stage 2
The VF kit had already been launched when I bought my BWR. I have nothing against VF, but they'd just launched and being based on the other side of the world I tought I'd take the trodden path. Also it's hot as hell out here 6 months of the year, so was concerned about reliability of a higher powered version. I'm still not sure if an air to air I/C stuffed at the side of the engine bay will really be man enough to cool intake temp. in the UAE...

I was / am hoping that BWR will offer their existing BWR owners an up-grade path that should give a better cost:gain than VF in order to retain loyality.... I guess S111 are thinking the same

Guess I wait it out a bit longer, see how my current BWR kit copes with the UAE Summer time and see the best solution in 6 months

[Dave]

Originally Posted by E7L

Is anyone with a TVS system planning on going to LOG29?

Yes.

[dma550]

Originally Posted by cain-it

Fred asked the question if people would be interested in a re-flash version (PES ? Charlie X?) of the TVS... well here's my answer :

I've got the standard (stage 1) BWR set-up (Charlie X tune), it's been running for about 6 months, I'm really happy with it... but more would be great . So I have 3 options :

1) VF Intercooled SC up-grade
BWR -> VF Stage 1: $2900 (280 RWHP / 176 lbft = 50 RWHP / 25 lbft Gain)
BWR -> VF Stage 2: $3400 (295 RWHP / 190 lbft = 65 RWHP / 39 lbft Gain)

Complete VF package Vs complete BWR package = + $2300/+2400. Therefore the up-grade path is costing $600 to $1000 extra + car off the road + labour + freight compared to buying VF in the 1st place. (exc. the need for the up-rated clutch)

2) TVS SC up-grade
BWR -> TVS with EFI: $5500 (275 RWHP / 177 lbft = 45 RWHP / 25 lbft Gain)
BWR -> TVS with reflash: $??? (255/260 RWHP / ? lbft = 30 RWHP / ? lbft Gain)

Ouch! As an upgrade, for similar gains to the VF Stage 1, the TVS/EFI solution is almost X2 the cost... based on this, it would be better to sell the BWR set-up complete and start afresh by adding the missing items like manifold / brackets etc. Because the cost is pushed-up by the EFI and the TVS has the capacity for more power, I think this solution is more orientated to those would want to go down the built motor route and keep playing / remapping for headers / low CR pistons etc... (not me, I'd prefer to install one time and drive more than tinker )

I'm sure the TVS + reflash could be a much more economic solution, however the cost:gains would need to be similar to VF Stage 1 and Fred is suggesting from his post, it will be lower powered...

3) BWR Stage 2
The VF kit had already been launched when I bought my BWR. I have nothing against VF, but they'd just launched and being based on the other side of the world I tought I'd take the trodden path. Also it's hot as hell out here 6 months of the year, so was concerned about reliability of a higher powered version. I'm still not sure if an air to air I/C stuffed at the side of the engine bay will really be man enough to cool intake temp. in the UAE...

I was / am hoping that BWR will offer their existing BWR owners an up-grade path that should give a better cost:gain than VF in order to retain loyality.... I guess S111 are thinking the same

Guess I wait it out a bit longer, see how my current BWR kit copes with the UAE Summer time and see the best solution in 6 months

I had prepped a post something like this. I think your HP numbers are off, I think the "BWR -> VF Stage 1: $2900 (280 RWHP / 176 lbft = 50 RWHP / 25 lbft Gain)" is actually 280 Crank hp, or or about 250-255whp.

[turbophil]

I think there's some confusion in the Hp and $$ figures here.

Simply put, to go from NA to TVS/EFI cost 6500. To upgrade from BWR/Katana costs $5,500. The total kit cost I believe is comparable to VFs... That said the kits are different and are for different users.

One of the two main difference is the ECU interface. The solution with the EFI allows the end user to fine tune the car to their heart's content. That might include programming in fun little toys like launch control, or something more useful to a track rat like a 100 octance track map that you can switch to with the supplied toggle switch. They "key" is that the user has to be one that is interested in learning and understanding the car. The map the kit comes with is very close and good. However, it will likely require a bit of tweaking for things like idle, cold running charecteristics, and some tweaks and dings for around town driving as all the different aftermamrket goodies (intakes, exhaust, etc) require a bit of tweaking to get the tune just right. Everyone starts with a tuning knowledge base of zero, so anyone can learn this stuff--- The question is are you one that *wants to learn* this stuff...

The other big difference is the blower which has been talked about in length. Without an IC is make about 280WHP or about 330 hp at the flywheel in a dyno jet. The WHP numbers would be much bigger on a dynapack, which is the dyno VF uses... I will end up doing an IC'ed variant, but it's going to be a 330-350whp setup--> So there is an upgrade path for someone that wants to sturdy up the block and go for bigger power. This is a power level not possible (at least reliably) with the MP-62...

Finally, within that price, I include a top of the line NGK AFX Wideband 02 sensor and read out which is worth something around 300-350 bucks...

If you don't need the fuel pump ($100), injectors ($300), WB 02 ($300), etc, just start taking numbers off the top line (5500/6500).

All that said, I'm quite certain the VF kit is a good product and with Charlie's fine technology allowing VF to flash the ECU, it will appeal to more users than my TVS kit will. I get that a lot of people like/want plug and play and be done with it. I'm not one of those. I like to plug and play, then mod again, then play again, wash-rinse-repeat... Based on the massive amount of phone calls and PMs I receive about the TVS/EFI setup, there's clearly a group of folks that want total freedom to modify and tune at-will, in conjunction with a desire to one day run really big power--> which the TVS most certainly can do...

Hope that helps,

Phil