Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[E.D.]

VF #'s are not dyno'd on a dynojet but on another type of dyno which reads higher. I just updated the thread again re the overview of SC's:
Overview supercharge/turbocharge solutions

See post #43 in that thread how I estimate/translate the VF dyno #'s into dynojet #'s.

[trackdriver]

cant wait for this for the S

[luxige]

From post #1020:

Originally Posted by turbophil

I think there's some confusion in the Hp and $$ figures here.

Simply put, ... {snip}

Hope that helps,

Phil

It sure does help. But it sounds like the reflash version will not be produced. Is that correct?

(The EFI 'tuner' package is a sweet deal, but not for my budget/expertise.)

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by luxige

From post #1020:



It sure does help. But it sounds like the reflash version will not be produced. Is that correct?

(The EFI 'tuner' package is a sweet deal, but not for my budget/expertise.)

Glad that helped, and I certainly don't want to force the EFI on folks that don't want it. That said, I wouldn't say your comment is 100% correct... Gotta couple things cooking...I've met a lot of nice folks in the Lotus community over the last nearly 4 years and believe it or not, there's more than 2 folks tuning the stock ECU stateside. Unfortunately, Mum is the word until he/she/they are ready to play. Fred is obviously kicking around the idea of a flash from his previous posts, and it would be great to work with him on it since we're buds... but there are other obsticles to overcome with that so we'll just have to see.... there are also others that I elluded to who are kicking the tires as well I know only fractionally more than what I just mentioned...

Outside of that, I have been custom building kits for those that have approached me and desire the EFI base for the reasons I mentioned earlier. I've got a shop stacked ceiling high with TVS blowers that are slowly being claimed one-by-one...

To be real honest, the take rate is about right for now, considering the other projects we've got going... There's a lot of work that goes into each kit and with the peanuts for margin I built into this kit, I'm really just more excited to see some guys who are going to get some enjoyment out of the setup, than trying to move a lot of quantity. It's simply a blast to drive. With the TQ curve multiplying as you go up in the power band, you get pushed further back in your seat the faster you go. If you built the motor to live to 9,000 RPMs, it would probably still be building power. That's something you just don't get with the older blowers... Lord help ya, when I intercool it

Best,

Phil

[Chococar]

Hi Phil,

A few questions for you about your upcoming intercooler option. First, thanks for listening to your customers who are asking for it!
1. It will work on an '05 Elise, right?
2. Any guess on approximately when it will be available?
3. To ensure it's an easy upgrade from your non-intercooled version, what should be done the first time around (e.g., compression ratio=x, etc.)

Thanks,

Joe

[turbophil]

Choco- The IC'ed variant MUST work on the Elise and Exige since I have an Elise The exige is easy since there's so much room, so I'm not to worried about that...

ETA- is a couple months. We're getting into track season (April 1), so I have to be careful. I have a very crammed schedule of track events and don't want to deal with much/any down time on the car... So I'll be working on the IC solution carefully...

Stuff to do to the engine in prep for IC and well over 300+WHP. PISTONS and clutch. Last night, I found that I'm already slipping my ACT HD clutch a bit in the higher gears. It now feels about like the stock clutch did with the Katana. It's holding, but not great. So need a clutch better than the ACT HD clutch. I believe the next step is the HD SS clutch...

The big issue is the pistons. You can probalby make the stock head work if you pinch the revs to 8,000. With this amount of power, that's reasonable. Back to the pistons, you REALLY need pistons. The compression ratio is a bit academic. I find that the lower compression (9-10:1) on 91 octane is simply easier to tune and more forgiving. You'll have a blower that you can spin, so use it. Let the blower make your power and keep the static compression on the lower side for safety... That's my thinking, and I'm sure there are those opinions to the contrary. That said, I'd suggest sticking with either stock or 9:1 compression with some Mahle drop in pistons. I suggest 9:1 since there are already maps floating around for that build so it will save you from having to reinvent the wheel... Of course the cool thing about the EFI, is that you can do what you want, when you want, and maybe reinventing is your thing...

Hope that helps.

Phil

[robains]

If Phil ever does come up with a TVS that'll work with my RLS IC, the money is waiting for him.

Can't wait to hear how Phil does with it on the track.

Phil - Toda Racing clutch/flywheel is OK, but I honestly don't think it will hold up to your power level -- it held up to 255 wHP but it's hard to get it to launch well without slipping too much. Not sure you were thinking of Toda, but just in case you were. But Toda does work well for street use.

[iana]

Turbophil

What levels of boost do you envisage TVS, 9:1 pistons, uprated fuel system, will be able to support.

[cain-it]

Just to comfirm I've no angle on TVS Vs VF Vs BWR... I think all options are interesting

The VF power figures I quoted were from their web site & what has been posted on Lotus Talk by them... I didn't get confused between wheel Vs flywheel HP, their site details "WHP". I cannot comment between the different dyno plots or equipment used...

Turbophil, I'm a real fan of your Lotus developments. I agree, for a 1st fit, the cost:gain of your complete TVS Vs VF's Stage 1 kits @ approx.$6400 a piece is on the money... you could argue even BETTER value for money, 'cause the kit packs a mappable EFI for future playing/upgrades if that's your bag.

However as an upgrade package from a BWR ($5500) this is only $1000 cheaper than a full kit and compares with $2900 (stage 1) or $3400 (stage 2) for VF... that's quite a bit more. Hence my comments it would be better to sell the complete BWR package and start afresh TVS.

I feel the big prize is IF you can develop a reflash option, your complete or upgrade kit costs would reduce dramatically and you'd open-up a much bigger market to those who simply want a "fit & forget" solution, rather than going for a built motor route. Even with more specialist cars like Caterhams & Atoms there are very few owners who want open ECUs, the vast majority would prefer a fully developed map that's ready to rock - from shopping trips round town to track days

[cain-it]

"Without an IC is make about 280WHP or about 330 hp at the flywheel in a dyno jet. The WHP numbers would be much bigger on a dynapack, which is the dyno VF uses... "

TurboPhil or anyone else, is there a certified way to compare DynoJet to DynaPack results? If the TVS 280WHP is stronger than VF's 280WHP, by how much? 5%? 10%?

If your not a expert engine tuner, how are optential owners able to compare like for like?

[fzust]

Originally Posted by cain-it

"Without an IC is make about 280WHP or about 330 hp at the flywheel in a dyno jet. The WHP numbers would be much bigger on a dynapack, which is the dyno VF uses... "

TurboPhil or anyone else, is there a certified way to compare DynoJet to DynaPack results? If the TVS 280WHP is stronger than VF's 280WHP, by how much? 5%? 10%?

If your not a expert engine tuner, how are optential owners able to compare like for like?

The best way is same car/same dyno/same day. Since that isn't gonna happen, the next realistic best is same type of dyno.

Here is the Dynojet posted from a VF stage 1 at 245RWHP/162/lb-ft. This compares in the same thread to the dynapak showing 280rwhp/176lb-ft.

This creates a comparison factor of 0.875 for HP and 0.925 for TQ.

Take the VF stage 2 numbers and multiply by the factors to get dynojet:
295RWHP*0.875= 258 RWHP
190RWTQ*0.925 = 175 RWTQ

To sanity check we can look at the other dyno plot for a VF stage 1 on a dynojet which put down 250RWHP and 161RWTQ. This is fairly close to the dynojet numbers posted by CharlieX for stage 1.

Is this analysis perfect? Far from it. It does give you a good way to get into the ballpark of cancelling out the differences in the dynos.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by iana

Turbophil

What levels of boost do you envisage TVS, 9:1 pistons, uprated fuel system, will be able to support.

Ian,

That's an interesting question... The engineers I visit with at Harrop tell me the 1320 is good for 20+psi boost on our engine, although I have no intention of running that kind of boost... With a reasonably efficient IC, you could bring the ECR back up to 20 or so with 9:1 pistons and that would take about 18 psi boost... But again, I won't be going there...

Here's the deal, I'm planning on targeting a relatively low whp number of only 330-350whp Why would I do such a terrible thing? Three fold, 1) Reliability of the driveline (although who are we kidding anyway, it's not all that reliable in stock form so ) 2) I *think* that's going to be about the right power before the chassis is simply over powered for a good balance on the track (the car just seems too short, too narrow, and not stiff enough for a whole lot more power without a lot of changes) and 3) "Light is right" and I don't want to have to get too crazy with umpteen heat exchangers scattered about all over the car and huge tire/wheel combo to deal with HUGE power. I want to keep it simple with a whimpy little A/A unit sitting off to the passenger side of the car and call it a day. I think the TVS will afford the ability to do that... To stick with proper after market lingo, Call that stage II.LOL.

The car is already blazing quick and very smooth/linear as it is. It's almost silly to keep going, but I can still feel the aero wall (which is exacerbated by my big wing and splitter) in the triple digits and another 50whp would probably help to curb that. Unfortunatly, I can tell the ACT HD clutch won't hold that extra 50whp, so I'll have to upgrade it before too long

My guesstimate is that a paltry 40-50% efficient A/A IC and the blower pushing about 13 psi boost (pre IC) will get to that 330-350ish whp range on 91 gas... I've got two sets of S manifolds now and I'll be using them for mock up on over the next several weeks. Provided that I can get the blower to fit with the S manifolds (which presents it's own challenges), then this will be quite the fun project that both Elise/Exige and S owners can enjoy...

RE the fuel system, my little surge tank system runs a walbro 255 pump and an adjustable 1:1 FPR. So ustilizing the vacuum/boost reference on the FPR (and new tune for the EFI), the 550 injectors will probably come pretty close to making the 330whp cut with a return style fuel rail and few new hoses for the surge tank...

Chat soon,

Phil

PS- All figures theorized in above post are dynojet numbers...

[Purist]

I've been following this thread from the begining, but I must have missed it: How do you go from NA to Phil's TVS for $6500?

[turbophil]

Not sure I understand the question fully, but I would suggest calling Phil

Cheers,

Phil

[shay2nak]

Originally Posted by fzust

The best way is same car/same dyno/same day. Since that isn't gonna happen, the next realistic best is same type of dyno.

Here is the Dynojet posted from a VF stage 1 at 245RWHP/162/lb-ft. This compares in the same thread to the dynapak showing 280rwhp/176lb-ft.

This creates a comparison factor of 0.875 for HP and 0.925 for TQ.

Take the VF stage 2 numbers and multiply by the factors to get dynojet:
295RWHP*0.875= 258 RWHP
190RWTQ*0.925 = 175 RWTQ

To sanity check we can look at the other dyno plot for a VF stage 1 on a dynojet which put down 250RWHP and 161RWTQ. This is fairly close to the dynojet numbers posted by CharlieX for stage 1.

Is this analysis perfect? Far from it. It does give you a good way to get into the ballpark of cancelling out the differences in the dynos.

VF stage 2 should be about 275-280whp and 180-187wtq on Dynojet. I posted it on the VF stage 2 thread. The bonus in calculating is that they have posted the elise baseline along with the stage 2 kit. You get flywheel HP/TQ then you divide 1.137 and 1.15 for HP & TQ respectively for dynojet. I tried the comparison correction factor between the 2 dynos and the numbers didn't seem right. My car has slightly higher numbers than this: 258whp & 175wtq

[iana]

New Eaton TVS Supercharger
I think your approach with the AtoA IC on the r/h side is the way to go now. Because some will want to upgrade to AtoW systems and this is best place for a chargecooler if they go that way and use the front oil coolers for water and go with a Laminova type oil cooler – so your plan seems right for both of the possible IC approaches that dont add unnecessary weight.
Agree that 350 or so real WHP (Dynojet) is about all this chassis will take so AtoA is ok, without compromising the possibility for racers to have AtoW.
What about a 14.5psi (1 Bar) at the head target, as I think that this maximises the return for the cost of supercharging? I realise this means replacing pistons with lower comp 9:1 to keep compression respectably under 20 ECR using the TVS.
Definitely uprate the fuel system as per your surge tank/pump kit – to avert engine damage from fuel surge/starvation and reducing fuel pressure, and install CircuitWorx oil pump gears to avoid damage to pump from cavitation due oil surge/starvation.
Also uprate the clutch for the new found power and install the Moroso oil pan to overcome oil surge.
Your WHP target seems realistic at the above boost while enabling a good safety margin to be built into the tune – with a conservative fuel map, good control over compression heat and perhaps accepting a limit of 7800rpm on the upchange?
Re the aero wall - you could ditch the wing and thus reduce drag.

[cain-it]

Thanks Fred regards the comparison on different dyno figures... I've a better idea now. There's quite a big difference between DynoJet and DynaPack! Mmm so the 225 WHP (DynoJet) that my BWR puts out, is not so far behind the VF Stage 1 approx 245/250 WHP (DynoJet).

That makes the TVS solution look even more impressive ... Now if you can just get a re-flash version done Turbo Phil / Fred

[charliex]

You can't compare dyno types with a simple multiplier like that, to do so just shows a total lack of underestanding of the difference between a dynapack and dynojet, yes you can derive a fudge factor that will show a peak HP match, but thats all its doing, its not a linear conversion.

For instance the dynapack's i use in texas and la read lower than most dynojets.

YouTube - Dynapack and DynoJet head to head comparison

Thats why you have to test on the same types of dyno's to see the real differences, everything is just pure guesswork.

[darkSol]

Charlie, I totally agree that it's a complex relationship between the two.

Shawn Church has an excellent writeup on his site: Dyno Tech

Just my $0.02 as always

[robains]

I like to find out when the Dyno was last calibrated by those that service them. Even on the same dyno at the same location. Dyno's are good tools for same day tuning sessions but the HP/TQ numbers they display should be used as a reference value for that day.

Dyno's are great tuning tools, but I think some people put WAY too much emphasis on the final wHP and wTQ numbers. I've seen enough variance from dyno's (even the same one) as much as 35%. Now engine dyno's are a different story, their variance is considerably less.

But if you're concerned about the final number, drive around to various dyno shops and do some baseline runs to get an idea of the variance.

Rob