Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[ss_exige]

If anyone upgrades from stock exige s blower and all hardware to TVS spec I might be interested in buying the stock blower, manifold, etc. Just let me know how much.

[iana]

Phil,

A couple of questions on the Eaton TVS blower -

The MP-62 is maxed out at around 16000rpm what is the max for the TVS?

Are there any performance figures about for the TVS delivering 1 Bar (14.5psi) on a high revving engine like ours? Any comparison data with the MP-62 on an up to 2 litre engine?

Is there a BOE TVS IC manifold in the wings?

IanA

[robains]

I believe 17280 rpm is the max for the MP62 but I could be wrong, I've seen reports of 15,000 - 17,280. MP62 becomes extremely inefficient above about 10 psi (vary by application) and generates considerably more heat which will shorten the life span of the MP62 considerably. You can go to a/w IC to keep the air charge temps down if above 10 psi, but that will NOT remove the heat in the MP62.

No one seems to want to report MP62 failures -- but I know they exist

TVS is about 25%-30% more efficient, but Phil can probably provide more numbers for you.

Rob

[GTsRasta]

Thanks for the reply phil.

I'm basically picking up another members MP62 when he's done with it, while he is upgrading to the TVS. I already have engine management covered. I just need gauges, and other small stuff, which includes your beefier GFK brackets. After I sell off my leftover parts from upcoming body work, I'll have more than enough to get them.

It looks like I might have to order a greddy style intake manifold one day for a MP62 that will be coming my way. How much will that cost? Are they also going to keep that gooseneck looking intake pipe that houses the throttle body? Or am I going to have to source that from somewhere as well?

If you prefer, you're free to shoot these answers to me in a PM, unless there are others like me who want to piece together everything now that katana/BWR users are upgrading to the TVS. Used Katana/BWR kits wouldn't be that bad of a bang for the buck purchase for you guys, especially with a race header and water injection on a custom tune.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by iana

Phil,

A couple of questions on the Eaton TVS blower -

The MP-62 is maxed out at around 16000rpm what is the max for the TVS?

Are there any performance figures about for the TVS delivering 1 Bar (14.5psi) on a high revving engine like ours? Any comparison data with the MP-62 on an up to 2 litre engine?

Is there a BOE TVS IC manifold in the wings?

IanA

Ian,

A lot of folks are spinning the tar out of te M62 well past 16,000. It's not a good idea, but they/we do/did it anyway. It's tough on the mechanical bits and more importantly it's WAY out of it's efficiency range... I think eaton claims that the 62 can mechanically deal with bursts past 18,000, with 16,000 being the max working rpm- BOTH ARE WAAAAY out in a super inefficient world- Way!... I'm running off memeory on the RPM figures, so please take those figures as a generalization-- they're close though...

Nevertheless, to apply to real world, the crank shaft is about 5.3". So if burst RPM is 8500, then 18,000 divided by 8,500 is 2.11- MAX remember. 5.3 div by 2.11 is 2.51. So 2.51 is the smallest pulley for burst RPM to run on the 62 to deal with an 8500 rpm red line... That's just the peanuts though...

Here's the big problem. What's the average RPM for a car on the race track? 7,500? That's probably about right, so let's run with that for a second. Take that same 2.5" pulley and run it at 7,500 rpms and you come to 15,825. All of a sudden, the car is averaging the peak work rpm of the blower AND still way off the efficiency island. The peak efficiency island for the M62 is about 62% efficient and that's at JUST 6-7000 BLOWER RPMs or about 4100 engine RPMS... I don't even think Eaton's maps go to 16,000rpm... It's an obsurd RPM to run that blower. THe efficiency of the M62 at 15,000+ rpm is down in the 40s or worse (again, it's off the map).. With the ever popular 3.1" pulley (and smaller) that some are running, it's efficiency is around 48-50 or worse%That's why I abandoned the concept of even playing with the lump anymore... 3.0 pulleys are just that much worse...

Conversely, the TVS runs great with a 3.55" pulley and that's what I ship with. So at the same average of 7,500 Rpm on the track the TVS runs 11,200rpms. The peak efficiency island of about 70% is between 11,000 and 13,000 RPMs for the 1320 TVS... So we're perfectly in the ball park of where the TVS does its best It blows cooler air AND takes less horsepower to blow it than the M62 and it's designed to operate at the RPM we spin it. It just makes sense... That's why I can run 280whp with no IC and do it safely. I don't have to worry about heat soak, as the blower blows what it blows. It's not working hard to do this. We're not pushing it like the the 62... It's never particulary hot nor is it particularly cool. IT makes 280whp on the first lap and the same on the last lap... We're not spinning the tar out of it, we're spinning at JUST THE RIGHT speed-- the speed it was designed for...

IN reference to the 14 psi. It's doable and stays on the island. takes about an 80-85mm pulley to do it... I've done it...

I've got the blower mounted on an IC intake in the shop and on an engine, but it's nowhere near done...I'm in no hurry to finish it either, as 280whp does OK... Other projects pending are more interesting to be honest...

Hope that helps,

Phil

[kaz]

Originally Posted by robains

I believe 17280 rpm is the max for the MP62 but I could be wrong, I've seen reports of 15,000 - 17,280. MP62 becomes extremely inefficient above about 10 psi (vary by application) and generates considerably more heat which will shorten the life span of the MP62 considerably. You can go to a/w IC to keep the air charge temps down if above 10 psi, but that will NOT remove the heat in the MP62.

No one seems to want to report MP62 failures -- but I know they exist

TVS is about 25%-30% more efficient, but Phil can probably provide more numbers for you.

Rob

I've heard of MP62 failures, well nothing catastrophic - I remember a couple people in the early Greddy kit days having to get new ones from coatings on the blades coming off. I agree, the MP62 is very inefficient - but they work and I think if you can cool the air from them the engine is fine. Frank had his to 14psi (15?) - we won't ever know how long it would have lasted since he moved to the turbo. But yeah, I'm going to be running 3 heat exchangers just like AJ and there's a reason for that - though I haven't been seeing high intake temps from just using the two stock oil coolers, they can't though get the air to ambient which I think AJ's/Brents setup with the PWR units can do.

DRS is sending my MP62 out to Embree Machine today to have them take a look at it. Wade Embree over there thinks my tolerances from the factory were too tight and the alignment is drifting off (the sound it makes is starting to harmonic-ize if that makes sense). I actually trust these two guys, they seem to be nutzoid over superchargers and all they do is take them apart and rebuild, recoat them. Their opinion is a properly coated MP62 with correct tolerances can redline regularly past 21k if you want to...but they highly don't recommend it for the obvious heat and efficiency issues. His words were, sure you can run them at 25K all day long if they are treated proper, but instead of getting 200k miles from it, it'll die at 100k miles.

If I had to do it all over again I would go custom stronger pistons at stock compression (or higher than my low ones) and build an engine around those. Way easier when I had stock engine to get 275rwhp than it has been now - but that (those actually) didn't last very long when beaten up at the track.

[robains]

Kaz,

How much does it cost to rebuild an MP62 and get tolerance to spec and coated? I'm staying with 9:1 because the prime duty (95% of the time - read 91 octane pump gas) of this car needs to still be a good daily drive/street car that will see probably 5 track events a year and no racing.

Come smog time (2011), I'll decide if I want to make it a track only car or not. Going back to stock will take about a day of my time. Even with the reliability issues I've had with this car, I've grown fond of it and hate to see all my man hours of time effort be undone.

If my MP62 gives up the ghost before then (currently running 9.5 -10 psi with an occassional 10.7 psi on a 2.9" pully), it's replacement will most likely be a TVS with an IC even if I have to make my own manifolds/adapters because Phil's a lazy SOB

Working on some cam tuning right now as I type this as it clearly seems to have an affect of Booooooost

Rob

[darkSol]

Originally Posted by robains

If my MP62 gives up the ghost before then (currently running 9.5 -10 psi with an occassional 10.7 psi on a 2.9" pully), it's replacement will most likely be a TVS with an IC even if I have to make my own manifolds/adapters because Phil's a lazy SOB

Rob... Oh Snap! Now you've done it... Phil's coming...

FYI - I'm finally doing a DynoJet baseline tomorrow at 11am CST.

Weather says 44F and rainy, 68% humidity, about 29.6 baro... just about 1.00 SAE correction... I hope.

I'm hoping for 275whp, 180wtor but will settle for 270whp, 175wtor.

A welcome upgrade from my 230whp, 149wtor M62 setup... (or 167whp, 120wtor stock)...

Stay tuned (pun intended!)

[turbophil]

I just spared a couple minutes to go get the maps and post them up... I wasn't too far off in my memory... Below you'll see the M62 compressor map. Assume that you're running about 1.65 to 1.7 bar. That's roughly between 9.5 and 10.5 psi boost...

Now, look at the vertical lines going through the maps. That's the RPM of the blower. Forget the X axis for now showing flow...

The other numbers in the maps are the efficiency numbers... Long and short of it, is that you want to be as close to the dark bluw island as possible. That's where you should design your system to fall. Anything outside of that, and you may not have the right blower or setup for the application. I say "may", as you may not have any other option depending on the application...

M62:Recall that with a 3.0" pulley at 7500 rpms, the M62 is spinning about 13,250 rpms... At 1.7 bar (which is about what the 3.0 does pre IC), that's about 54% efficient... Note that at redline, of 8500, the M62 is spinning 15,000+rpms and is off the map... No where near the island in either case...

TVS: Recall that the 3.55" pulley creates about 1.7 bar (no IC pressure loss), the blower is spinning about 11,200rpms at 7500. That's right in the island and falls at 73 to 72% efficient... Not bad Right in line with Rob's 33% more efficient number... At 8500 redline, the blower is spinning 12,700 rpms. Still in the good color...

TVS at 14 psi or almost 2 bar... would turn about 12,000 RPMs would fall between 70 and 72% efficient. Notice how the TVS island goes so far north? if a fella wanted to really push it, this blower will stay quite efficient well past 15-16 psi even at the RPMs we turn...

I get a lot of questions about this stuff, so hopefully these maps and explaination are helpful...

Best,

Phil

[kaz]

Originally Posted by robains

Kaz,

How much does it cost to rebuild an MP62 and get tolerance to spec and coated?

The High Speed Lab, Roots-type Supercharger Rebuild Services for All Eaton Superchargers

Here ya go Robin. From what I am gathering, it takes a LOT for some of these rebuilds to be required. Wade doubted my coatings were coming off based on the low milage (relative) the SC has on it (some 25k miles so far).

[kaz]

Originally Posted by turbophil

TVS at 14 psi or almost 2 bar... would turn about 12,000 RPMs would fall I get a lot of questions about this stuff, so hopefully these maps and explaination are helpful...

very cool, visually explains a lot...TVS with a core charger should be pretty fun

[robains]

The visual sweet spot -- I think I can see New Orleans.

Hmmmm...David and I dyno'ing at the same day and time in different times zones I'll be happy if I hit 250 wHP with my MP62 -- trying to get my map fully sorted before then.

[darkSol]

I just got back from the DynoJet - gotta love having the day off!

I FINALLY got my baseline TVS dyno in...

The dyno guy had an issue with both the tailpipe wideband O2 blowing out and the RPM pickup not working... it took 4 runs to get a clean one... and all were done within 13 minutes of each other with the car running: 11:24am, 11:31am, 11:35am and 11:37am. Indicated dash water temperature never exceeded 185 degrees. All I wanted was a baseline - Phil was out of town anyway

Results are below in the 4 attachments...

1) First picture is the best (and only complete) dyno run: 283.77 whp and 183.84 wlb-ft. That's 322 hp and 209 lb-ft at the flywheel.

2) Second are three of the partial runs overlaid (run #3 was aborted early and not displayed). Best numbers for all three are: 286.4 whp and 186.50 wlb-ft. That's 325 hp and 212 lb-ft at the flywheel. I think I'll PM Wayne for a Lotus Sport 330R decal for the manifold

3) Third is my best TVS dyno vs. my best M62 Katana dyno vs. my bone stock dyno. Pretty dramatic.

4) Lastly is a zipped .DRF file of the dynos in the third picture if anyone wants to download it and view/compare them with the WinPep software.

Enjoy!

Woohoo!

[GregD]

Originally Posted by darkSol

I just got back from the DynoJet - gotta love having the day off!

I FINALLY got my baseline TVS dyno in...

The dyno guy had an issue with both the tailpipe wideband O2 blowing out and the RPM pickup not working... it took 4 runs to get a clean one... and all were done within 13 minutes of each other with the car running: 11:24am, 11:31am, 11:35am and 11:37am. Indicated dash water temperature never exceeded 185 degrees. All I wanted was a baseline - Phil was out of town anyway

Results are below in the 4 attachments...

1) First picture is the best (and only complete) dyno run: 283.77 whp and 183.84 wlb-ft. That's 322 hp and 209 lb-ft at the flywheel.

2) Second are three of the partial runs overlaid (run #3 was aborted early and not displayed). Best numbers for all three are: 286.4 whp and 186.50 wlb-ft. That's 325 hp and 212 lb-ft at the flywheel. I think I'll PM Wayne for a Lotus Sport 330R decal for the manifold

3) Third is my best TVS dyno vs. my best M62 Katana dyno vs. my bone stock dyno. Pretty dramatic.

4) Lastly is a zipped .DRF file of the dynos in the third picture if anyone wants to download it and view/compare them with the WinPep software.

Enjoy!

Woohoo!

It's probably in various threads somewhere, but I think it would be nice to have a summary of all of the power related mods to your car. In other words, what would it take to replicate the results you've gotten?

[usurbrain]

it's in his sig...

darkSol Showcase

[GregD]

Originally Posted by usurbrain

it's in his sig...

darkSol Showcase

Too much stuff to go through there, and it would be nice to have a simple summary in the thread.

[darkSol]

Fine!

Mods related to power...

- BOE TVS supercharger kit (90mm pulley & 550cc injectors)
- EFI standalone with a baseline BOE tune
- Forcedfed street header + decat pipe
- AreaP 2.5" straight through exhaust
- MaxBore +4mm throttle body
- TurboXS intake (map pipe removed - not needed)
- Fidanza flywheel
- ACT XTSS clutch
- Stock NGK spark plugs
- Stock 160lph fuel pump (will be upgraded soon)
- Unopened 2ZZGE engine

That's all I can think of... simple bolt-ons, really.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Congrats darkSol You must be so happy

[GregD]

Originally Posted by darkSol

Fine!

Mods related to power...

- BOE TVS supercharger kit (550cc injectors)
- Forcedfed street header + decat pipe
- AreaP 2.5" straight through exhaust
- MaxBore +4mm throttle body
- TurboXS intake (map pipe removed - not needed)
- Fidanza flywheel
- ACT XTSS clutch
- Stock NGK spark plugs
- Stock 190lph fuel pump (will be upgraded soon)
- Unopened 2ZZGE engine

That's all I can think of... simple bolt-ons, really.

Katana/Greddy intake manifold?
Did the air/fuel ratios stay ok with the stock pump on your dyno run?

[darkSol]

Originally Posted by GregD

Katana/Greddy intake manifold?
Did the air/fuel ratios stay ok with the stock pump on your dyno run?

Yes on #1 - for now... BOE has just designed an awesome manifold that might one day end up on my car though...

Yes on #2 - There was a quickly rising AFR tail above 8000rpm where the stock fuel pump putters out... air-fuel was starting to approach mid-high 12's... not a good place to be... so that's why the rev limiter was set to 8200 instead of 8500. Spark cut @ 8100, Fuel cut @ 8200...

Better springs, valves, oil pump gear and of course Walbro 255 fuel pump would let you zing higher... but that's when I "open her up" later this year...

Oh, did I mention that Dynolicious told me a few night's ago that I ran an informal 11.98 @ 118mph run? (on a deserted road)... I had to shift to 5th gear! The LETSLA helped a bunch too!