Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[robains]

skottoman,

I'd like to see more CARB numbers also, but I don't think that will happen due to how hard it is to find a CARB approved dyno and meet the very strict requirements. It takes considerable amount of effort for CARB and any changes to the kit would require another CARB run. So a CARB kit would cost at least 2X or 3X times as much in order to recover getting a CARB number.

Not saying it can't be done, cause it can, it's just cost to do so makes the kit virtually unsellable.

[Bavarian Motorist]

If the BWR or Sector kits have not become carb compliant yet, there's no way any other kit, which would probably be sold in much lower quantities, will do it either.

If you want CARB compliance, wait for the Lotus sold kit.

[charliex]

You're looking at a minimum of $15,000 for CARB, probably end up in the 20s.

Its not hard to find a carb approved dyno there are quite a few around, i've been to one for some CARB work, nor is it very hard to pass, it just takes time.

Any changes made require you to either retest or send documentation showing why the changes wouldn't effect the CARB status, if the CARB people agree, they pass it, if not they make you retest.

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

Phil, can you compare the down-low power vs the MP62?

Sure, it has a lot more... It has more torque everywhere and sooner. So down-low power (torque is up over the M62). See dyno below that will show how the TQ is up everywhere in the powerband vs the old M62... (similar dyno was also on the first post). It's pretty awesome how the car has so much power on tap. Roll-on the throttle in 6th gear at 60 feels about like a NA car does in 3rd gear at 60 It's VERY torquey and VERY smooth...

Originally Posted by RichardNHCooper

I have a newly installed BWR kit, what size injectors are needed for the increased power.

Since this blower makes more power, it also needs more fuel... Quite a lot more fuel. The dyno pulls I did were with 440s (Comes with Katana and BWR), however they were pretty well maxed out and well above 80% DC. More testing will indicate whether the injector change to 550s is 100% mandatory. If it is, 550s run about $350 and would be incorporated into the "kit"...

Originally Posted by slaughtr

Phil,
You make a kit out of this and yet again, I'll be a customer.

No, I'm not taking out my turbo, this would be for another car.

Cool! What do you have in mind??????


Regarding availability--- following a bit more testing and discussions, this setup may be available as both an upgrade and a complete kit as early as January

Best,

Phil

PS- A note about the dyno, the smaller pull has a 3.2" pulley w/ M62 and subsequently probably has more umph than any of the off-the-shelf Katana or BWR kits. The point of the chart is to show that the TVS pull has considerably more power than even a modified and higher than stock output Katana kit in all segements of the power band...

[charliex]

there's no way you'll be able to run that setup on 440cc injectors, you'll max out well before peak rpm, switching to the 550cc's will help, but you'll still need to upgrade the fuel delivery either with a swirl pot or higher volume fuel pump to make it into a kit , with the stock pump on the 550s, you still be well into the 90s

even though you're making less power than the mp62's with the 3.0 pulleys, you'll still be out of fuel in the 6000-7000 rpm range, especially with the higher boost.

[Bavarian Motorist]

That's amazing how much torque it has at even 2000-3000 RPM

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by charliex

there's no way you'll be able to run that setup on 440cc injectors, you'll max out well before peak rpm, switching to the 550cc's will help, but you'll still need to upgrade the fuel delivery either with a swirl pot or higher volume fuel pump to make it into a kit , with the stock pump on the 550s, you still be well into the 90s

even though you're making less power than the mp62's with the 3.0 pulleys, you'll still be out of fuel in the 6000-7000 rpm range, especially with the higher boost.

CX- I tend to agree... in fact, you're most certainly correct... I'm pulling it off with 440s, but I'm really pushing the envelope for them. To keep the duty cycle within acceptable levels and still leave a little room, 550s are probably a certainty. I'm doing a fuel system test here shortly playing with the stock fuel pump, 440s and 550s, which is why I even mentioned the 440s as being a possibility---even if a remote one...

Cheers,

Phil

[charliex]

its absolutely not possible, the math just doesn't add up either, figure out the amount of fuel that 4 550cc injectors flow, then look at the stats on the fuel pump.

440cc's you'll hit around 80% DC at 6000RPM ish, it'll max out around 7ish, i doubt you'll be able to keep the fuel low.

550cc's will hit a bit later, but i was able to keep the AFR's where they were wanted, but the DC was well into the 90s at 7000 RPM, limiting the RPM to 8200 basically made it ok, but the proper way to fix it is to add fuel volume, told em never to go below 3/4 of a tank, at that torque level you'll hit 90% DC much much earlier and it'll go lean, i could not get the fuelling below 12.8, then it rapidly leans out, which gives absolutely no margin for error.

low tank, long corner or fuel pickup problem and say buh bye, 550's need the 255 pump, you're at almost double the capacity for the pump at that cc.

someone mentioned to me about over voltaging the pump, thats a terrible idea too.

[turbophil]

Good to know Charlie- I certainly haven't analyzed the tuning side of it to fruition by any means. I've not made time to get my own tune ironed out, as I've been busy on the hardware items. I made enough pulls to see that the car made more power with this setup after a good flogging on the street and dyno... That said, and to your point, it appeared that I was running out of gas at the end of the pulls, but I just haven't had time to investigate what DC I was pulling. I was probably running static...

My goal was simply to get the hardware sorted and see if the combination was promising on my car... Now that we know the combination is promising (and then some), it's time to see what other changes have to be done to the car like the fuel system to keep up with the tune and subsequent power... Your experience with the tuning here is obviously very helpful...

Best,

Phil

[2-Y-CHROMOSOMES]

Originally Posted by Bavarian Motorist

That's amazing how much torque it has at even 2000-3000 RPM

torque numbers are on the right side...not the left

[charliex]

swirl pot or 255, that'll sort it proper.

a 3.2 is probably the safest pulley size to go too, a 3.1 is marginal, a 3.0 is over the limit.

[Bavarian Motorist]

Originally Posted by 2-Y-CHROMOSOMES

torque numbers are on the right side...not the left

Obviously... The torque output is very high at that RPM.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by charliex

swirl pot or 255, that'll sort it proper.

What do you think about Smaay's fuel return system?

[thegoat]

I'm in. This is nuts. I just wish that I wouldn't have made the first step to BWR.

[robains]

Since everyone is talking about fuel delivery. Could I see some numbers (pressure vs. rpm vs. boost)? I plan to install a fuel pressure gauge and hook it up to my IQ3 for monitoring.

[Chris Mackey]

Does it make any sense to detune the kit, in order to avoid issues with fuel delivery? Perhaps offer two kits; one like the Katana and one more expensive, invasive and difficult to install?

My car can be the mule for the second option.

[charliex]

stock fuel pump is 46.7 lbs, it'll drop a little but it shouldn't drop much.

smaays fuel rail is fine.

to detune it, you'd have to drop boost,.

[E.D.]

Originally Posted by charliex

550cc's will hit a bit later, but i was able to keep the AFR's where they were wanted, but the DC was well into the 90s at 7000 RPM, limiting the RPM to 8200 basically made it ok, but the proper way to fix it is to add fuel volume, told em never to go below 3/4 of a tank, at that torque level you'll hit 90% DC much much earlier and it'll go lean, i could not get the fuelling below 12.8, then it rapidly leans out, which gives absolutely no margin for error.

low tank, long corner or fuel pickup problem and say buh bye, 550's need the 255 pump, you're at almost double the capacity for the pump at that cc.

someone mentioned to me about over voltaging the pump, thats a terrible idea too.

So basically this TVS and the VF stage II kit (per Vision Function Supercharger Kit Upgrade Testing (Stage II)) reach the limit of the stock fuel pump. That makes sense they are both making approx. the same power which apparently as far as you can go on the OEM fuel pump. Oh well... it s/b enough for most owners since I expect this to be FAST

[charliex]

its running less boost, less boost less fuel, the cars i did at the weekend had dropped rev limiters to accomodate and a larger pulley.

as you can see in jermaines post it says that we ran out of fuel on the 2.9 (which is probably about the same boost level as phil's at around 10lbs) and it requires a fix, basically the exact same problem.

as i said earlier, a 3.2 or 3.1 pulley on the SC is about the limits for a stock fuel pump, all things being equal, you can run more (3.0 ,lower rev limiter) and live with the higher DC, but its not a great idea.

[Bavarian Motorist]

What should we expect to pay for an uprated fuel delivery system? Any approximations?