Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by breinhar

Ahh the temptation is correct.

Just not ready for a new clutch and doing my own tuning, although I am interested in doing my own tuning as a computer guy.

Someday.

Great info, Thanks.

Breinhar,
Phil's base maps are so near perfect and since the cars all running TVS are very similar in spec I dont think you'll "need" to do much tuning. If you're a computer guy you'll most likely find the whole experience interesting regardless.

Kris

[robains]

I'm a computer guy, it makes sense after you work with it and start to understand the terminology. Heck, you don't even need a dyno if you have a nice empty stretch of road (preferably going up an incline).

I'll eventually get a TVS and keep my RLS IC -- with or without Phils "special" S parts.

Rob.

[gtsjoe89]

i have a toyota celica and was wondering if this supercharger would be able to work on my celica since we have the same engine? sorry if im being a newb

[...m...]

...other than doing a simple crank-to-wheel ratio calculation per lotus' published stock motor figures, is there any authoritative way to calculate brake horsepower and torque from the dynometer wheel measurements of a TVS kit?..

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by ...m...

...other than doing a simple crank-to-wheel ratio calculation per lotus' published stock motor figures, is there any authoritative way to calculate brake horsepower and torque from the dynometer wheel measurements of a TVS kit?..

It's difficult to calculate this 100% accurately. Too many variables the machine cannot account for on it's own, such as the drag from different tire compounds, drivetrain efficiency (and lubrication of these parts), and suspension alignment are just a quick few off the top of my head. I've personally seen small changes w/ the above mentioned effect results on a chassis dyno.

I've mapped engines on Superflow engine dynos and those seem to be the best machines hands down.

Kris

[jah29]

Phil-

What's the deal if someone has an Exige S and wants your TVS kit. Pricing and installation difficult. I'm already aware of how much faster it would be

thanks,
justin

ps I love how quiet it is in your videos.

[EliseAtLeast]

Originally Posted by jah29

Phil-
What's the deal if someone has an Exige S and wants your TVS kit. Pricing and installation difficult. I'm already aware of how much faster it would be

+1. I'm very curious as well. What exactly is involved and what about the current factory IC? Thanks.

[turbophil]

I get that question a lot, so please pardon the long response to follow

Exige S is no problem. As most S owners know or are finding out, the airflow to the IC is hardly adequate for consistent cooling on the track even at the stock S power levels. The demands of the IC go UP as the power levels go UP (more power requies more air, which is more air to cool), which renders the S intercooler that much more inadequate with the TVS.

Soooo, adding our system to the S in it's current form is no more difficult that adding it to a NA elise/exige. Remove the old stuff and bolt on the new stuff-- sans all the IC stuff, as the stock S IC componets would not behoove the performance of the TVS on the track. The stock IC would just heat soak that much faster and bring you down to a level of power lower than what the non-ICed TVS setup would have been to begin with... It would be lower because you now have a heat soaked IC that won't cool down quickly and would actually warm the charge up and all that extra intake volume and IC will create a pressure drop... In this application, No IC is a lot better than an insufficient IC...

How much faster? I lot. It would be lighter, you would gain rear visibility, AND you would be laying down 280+whp--- on the first lap as well as the last lap of a track session. Most S's have around 200whp stock and the Gotham'd cars seem to run about 220whp, and I bet they don't retain those power levels on the track due to the airflow issues to the IC... Many NA elise drivers have mentioned that the S can't pull on them after a few laps into a session, for instance... For another example, I think most folks would agree that the FF275 cars run pretty good. A friend of mine has one and we tracked the other week. I've got heavy wheels and a lot aero drag. He has a sleek elise with no added aero drag and probably a 50-75lb lighter car. Down the straights, even toward the end of the session, I was walking all over his car. I was half peddling to stay behind him on the straights. The TVS cars are pretty quick to say the least. It's simple, easy, quiet, and reliable power.

Technology is a cool thing (pun?) and this is the latest technology out...

Hope that helps,

Phil

[GTsRasta]

Phil,

Take a look at this from Boosted2.0's intake manifold thread that uses bigger TB's:

New Intake Manifold for GTS / 2ZZ - huge power gains - Page 43 - NewCelica.org Forum

Originally Posted by Boosted2.0

Update: DBW testing for teh GM TB is a bust. The problem is that GM uses a different strategy for their secondary TPS sensor than Toyota. Unfortunately those sensors are integral to the housing.

The good news is that we will now proceed with the Tundra TB which we KNOW works and idles, and can probably be overbored if desired.

In the process of doing all this we actually measured the throttle plates, and the Q45 PLATE is only 80.5 mm, NOT the 84 mm that the housing is at the back end. That means the difference is only about 2mm from Tundra to Q45 which is highly promising.

Is it possible for you to make a new supercharger gooseneck for the bigger throttle bodies (Q45 for 05's, Tundra 5.7 for 06+ DBW)? That would be a great way to simply bolt on more power to your unit after tuning. At this point, I think I want to just save the extra money and go straight to your TVS unit instead of waiting for a good MP62 supercharger deal.

I bet you can even package them together for a reasonable price.

[robains]

Captain SubText ON (translation for you Coupling fans)

Phil's just not that motivated to do an S IC version, but he might if enough people ask him nicely and he can make more than $5 a head on the deal.

Rob.

[GTsRasta]

^^^

Would the TVS work well if the A2A intercooler was replaced with a A2W intercooler, and then basemaps were created for that setup?

New Liquid to Air Intercooler

That sounds like the most logical solution to me.

[turbophil]

Rob is right about my motivation-- or lack thereof-- for the most part anyway...

I would add that the S intercooled version isn't what I would call it. The S cars and the NA cars are the same to me. One has an IC'ed M62 and the other doesn't. The TVS system, in its current form, replaces the entire induction system on both cars. It makes no difference to me if it began life as an IC'ed M62 or if it was NA. The TVS system will make a lot more power in both instances. In the S's case, the power will be more plentiful, more usable, and more consistent for the track go'er.

Make no mistake, an intercooled TVS solution will make well over 300whp (think 330, etc). There's no *good way* to intercool the TVS and have it make less than 300whp. It would be counter productive to do so... and there in lies the problem. There's very little business incentive to make an IC'ed TVS because so many things on the car are likely to break with that kind of power. THe tranny becomes even more questionable, some aftermarket clutches can't handle the power (so some will have to replace the clutch again), and most importantly-- the pistons MUST be replaced at that level (for a track car). All of a sudden making well over 300whp gets pretty expensive for most people, so I know my audience will be limited... So the incentive to IC the TVS really has to come from me (as do all of my projects) I'll make an IC'ed version some day-- when I feel like I've exhausted the limits of my car with 280+whp or just get bored I don't think people realize just how fast and smooth the car is with the TVS powerband as it is. It's easy to get glued to dyno numbers and just want more all the time. I think track rats tend to think LESS that way, FWIW. Afterall, it's just the motor. There's a lot more to going fast than just bumping up the horsepower.

I'm really an enthusiast first and businessman second...Hope that makes some more sense

TP

[EliseAtLeast]

Thanks Phil for the detailed explanation. It makes a lot of sense. Now I really wished I kept the Elise instead of trading up for the Exige S. I don't want to tear out everything that I paid extra for to put in the TVS. Maybe get another used Elise or NA Exige down the road.

[LotusDuude]

HOW MUCH LONGER????????

[turbophil]

You could probably sell the S system to an NA Exige guy to recoupe some $$... Just swap ECUs with him/her and call it a day (since you wouldn't need the S ECU anymore)

[jah29]

thanks for answering my question phil. I was worried that the S had additional components added to the 2zz that would make the TVS install more complicated and expensive. Glad that is not the case.

The TVS starts looking like a very good value when you consider the cost of a new AW intercooler and a gotham tune for the S, and your not making as much power. But then it starts looking more expensive to me when I found out it has so much power you need a new clutch. While I'm putting the clutch in I might as well buy a new flywheel, hey I could put a LSD in now too...

How many hours does it take you to install the TVS and how many for the budding mechanic considering your kit?

thanks,
justin

[jim-clayton]

Originally Posted by robains

Captain SubText ON (translation for you Coupling fans)

Phil's just not that motivated to do an S IC version, but he might if enough people ask him nicely and he can make more than $5 a head on the deal.

Rob.

Rob,

You have a no brainer. Order a TVS. Dump that MP62 and Lotus IC crap.

You will get 290 with that killer head. 240 to 290 is a big jump. You will be very happy. What could it cost $3000.00 ???

peanuts for you !!

[darkSol]

I drove to work this morning. It's the first time I got to drive the car in almost two weeks. My wife's been out of town and I've been playing single dad - and then when she WAS home it's been typhoon conditions outside...

Anyway I was driving up the highway (635) about 1/2 the way to work when a 2010 Mustang GT (much cooler headlights, IMHO) was up in front of me in traffic. Well traffic cleared and I nailed it in 4th, running up to about 100mph from 70mph in about 5 seconds... and THAT got his attention.

So over the next couple of minutes at least 3 different times we got stuck in traffic together, twice with me in front and then once with him in front (slow lane traffic conditions). Each time we got clear I was able to HANDILY outrun him to the next set of cars and in the case when he was ahead of me I pulled around and in front of him pretty easily. I'm not revealing how fast I got up to but let's just say it was close to redline in 5th... shh!



The beasty's got power... and is especially smooth with the new firmware. Feels like stock x2...

Looking forward to the drive home - even though it's a freakin' 93 degree sweatbath (57% humidity, 101 degree heat index) outside...

[robains]

Jim,

That's next years plan (give me some time to blow #3 up first), but I'll do it with my IC (with or without Phil's assistance). It's about $3700 -- maybe less if I can make it work with my existing S manifold. I think I can make the IC work fine with TVS. But right now, I just want to get back out on track and stop fiddlin' with my car.

I don't recall what Phil's air charge temps while on track, but mine (calibrated) and logged with my IQ3 maxed out at 140 F (average 127 F over entire session) at the end of a 25 minute track session.

I'm just using RLS intercooler with a sealed shroud and opened mail slot @ 9.3 psi. I figure I could probably hit 300 wHP using same IC with TVS @ 10 psi on 9:1. Might even do 10.5:1 and drop boost to 9 psi with IC.

IMHO, the biggest single improvement to reduction of heat soak is removing the rear bumper and decat and some heat wrap on the exhaust -- bigger IC, sealing the shroud, and opening the mail slot helps, but it's the full combo that produces the best results.

Next year Jan/Feb (if Phil still has any TVS's left).

Rob.

[turbophil]

Generally, I'd say it takes a full weekend from the time you take the first wrench out of the tool box to driving it around the street. The hardware install is actually pretty easy. Probably the easiest of any of the kits out there... So lets say that part takes a total of 6 hours at an easy pace. The hardest part there is removing the stock stuff, IMO...
Then you'll have about that much time in wiring in the EFI and Wideband 02 or so... The wiring is actually VERY easy, there's just a fair amount of it once you factor in the wideband installation. By that, I mean you'll want to run the wideband gauge up to the dash, so you'll probably remove the center console and interior to run the wires, etc...

I generally recommend removing the clam for the installation just to protect bodywork and your back, but it's not required. FWIW, 9 out of 10 of the last installations have gone for the clamhinge while the car was apart, so just about everyone has removed the clam for installation for the clamhinge anyway. I know Dave installed his with clam on, but I think about everyone else did clam off...

I personally think the TVS is a fantastic value considering all the parts that come with it and the future flexability of it. It's got to be pretty good value, because I don't make much at all on them. I think I'm worknig for about $4 an hour on the kit by the time you factor everything in. I'd be better off working at McDonalds But this is more fun

Best,

TP

Originally Posted by jah29

thanks for answering my question phil. I was worried that the S had additional components added to the 2zz that would make the TVS install more complicated and expensive. Glad that is not the case.

The TVS starts looking like a very good value when you consider the cost of a new AW intercooler and a gotham tune for the S, and your not making as much power. But then it starts looking more expensive to me when I found out it has so much power you need a new clutch. While I'm putting the clutch in I might as well buy a new flywheel, hey I could put a LSD in now too...

How many hours does it take you to install the TVS and how many for the budding mechanic considering your kit?

thanks,
justin