Next Generation in Supercharging Means 275whp!

[spf4000]

^What's the point? Just go with BWR/Katana or an Exige S if you want less power.

[UFfitz56]

`

Originally Posted by spf4000

^What's the point? Just go with BWR/Katana or an Exige S if you want less power.

ummm....about 20hp? plus the potential to upgrade later for much cheaper. If the limit of the stock fuel pump is ~ 275hp then why not have a kit just below that limit with the stock fuel pump and another kit for above that?

Obviously I am a total newb when it comes to the lotus so i apologize if I am being retarded. But I have dealt with many fuel pump issues in the b6 and b7 a4 turbo kits.

[Bruce]

Originally Posted by spf4000

^What's the point? Just go with BWR/Katana or an Exige S if you want less power.

Lower discharge temperatures. That's one of the advantages of a TVS when not usng an intercooler.

[Harbir]

I wonder if this supercharger can be expected to appear in a IC equipped kit complete with fuel pump, injectors, et al for a stock Elise

[plastique999]

Originally Posted by spf4000

^What's the point? Just go with BWR/Katana or an Exige S if you want less power.

I'm a little weary too, as I am one that has had a bad experience when you are pushing the 2zz with FI....I think you're really pushing the limits of the durability and reliability of the stock engine.

[Jean-Paul]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I wonder if this supercharger can be expected to appear in a IC equipped kit complete with fuel pump, injectors, et al for a stock Elise

that's what i am waiting for...ad if that comes too exensive i amheading to a katana and thn upgrading at some point...or vf....

[sfelise]

Originally Posted by Harbir

I wonder if this supercharger can be expected to appear in a IC equipped kit complete with fuel pump, injectors, et al for a stock Elise

If it ends up working on the Exige manifolds you could certainly get this together!

[Harbir]

If the TVS supercharger unit is so much better than the MP62, i imagine folks like VF would put in their own kit. Not in their interest to keep using an outdated design when this thing is out there, I would think?

[turbophil]

Hey Guys and Happy Black Friday

The stock engine certainly has its own limitations. That glass ceiling will be hit at different points due to a whole number of things...

The underlying concept for this system is that you can essentially get to the upper end of the stock engine limits without an IC which keeps the system simple, clean, and less expensive than an IC'ed system *for those cars that did not come with a SC*.

That said, I'll build a kit to mount to the S manifolds as well. However remember that the setup will all ready about max out the stock pistons w/o an IC. To add an IC and bump the boost up will push you further into that glass ceiling. So, adding an IC to the TVS system for Elise or NA Exige guys, in particular, would only really be a substantial benefit if you swapped the pistons for lower compression units and then go for a 300+ whp monster...

So, I can see an upgrade path for S/Cup owners here since they struggle with IC efficiencies so much, this would make it easier for those folks to get to the 275+whp figures...

Hope that adds some clarity...

Best,

Phil

[Bleu Omdurman]

^^^ I would offer that there is a pretty good reason for not constantly switching to the latest and greatest stuff on the market. I imagine they have several parts in inventory and need to sell them before they change their technology. Not that your idea isn't great, but just switching technology before the sales take off, is a recipe for paralysis as a company.

If they changed parts, they would be much farther away from full production and competitors would likely beat them to market.

What is interesting to me in all of this, is what the various players (those we know and those we don't) have in the works.

I remember in 2005 when I was a mere lurker on the board, that the general consensus was the Lotus ECU was too smart for tuners. Changing the car meant less power and the only way forward was less mass.

Now we have cars on the road that are knocking on 400hp. Not to mention some streetable/trackable/reliable options for us mere mortals that are knocking on the 300hp door.




I'm still a wimp though and haven't pushed the button on a kit yet. Given the current situation (VF - BOE - others?) I am glad that I haven't. One of these days though. One of these days.

[robains]

Phil,

On a side note, do the lower comp pistons you used weigh less?

Rob

P.S. For you folks fearing engine life issues, do bare in mind that a NEW (not rebuilt) short block and cylinder head with valves comes it under $2000 -- which is less than the SC. Just an FYI.

[plastique999]

Originally Posted by turbophil

Hey Guys and Happy Black Friday

The stock engine certainly has its own limitations. That glass ceiling will be hit at different points due to a whole number of things...

The underlying concept for this system is that you can essentially get to the upper end of the stock engine limits without an IC which keeps the system simple, clean, and less expensive than an IC'ed system *for those cars that did not come with a SC*.

That said, I'll build a kit to mount to the S manifolds as well. However remember that the setup will all ready about max out the stock pistons w/o an IC. To add an IC and bump the boost up will push you further into that glass ceiling. So, adding an IC to the TVS system for Elise or NA Exige guys, in particular, would only really be a substantial benefit if you swapped the pistons for lower compression units and then go for a 300+ whp monster...

So, I can see an upgrade path for S/Cup owners here since they struggle with IC efficiencies so much, this would make it easier for those folks to get to the 275+whp figures...

Hope that adds some clarity...

Best,

Phil

Thanks for the clarification Phil, I agree that the stock pistons are def. maxed out around the 275 realm before needing to upgrade pistons for more durability. If you feel the stock pistons will hold with your kit, then I am game (reason being, I have the opportunity to upgrade to forged pistons, but that is a whole different ball game....compression, boost, tune, etc.) At this point, I am most concerned about reliability on the "glass engine."

Edit: I just read Rob's above post....so your pistons ARE upgraded?

[fzust]

Additionally, the MP62 hits a pricepoint. The tooling is likely fully depreciated. Eaton is probably splitting the market into 2 tiers, high and low-end. They will have to pay for the TVS tooling AND they charge a higher price on the TVS because they can. Ultimately, the price is what keeps an intercooled TVS off the market. Lastly, you get to a point of diminishing marginal return. That is to say 10psi on an 11.5:1 compression motor is the practical limit on pump gas. The fairly horrid efficiency of the MP62 at that pressure ratio is compensated by the intercooler. The TVS is more efficient, so it doesn't need the IC to cool the air at that pressure ratio. Would it be cooler with an IC, sure, but not alot. Is 10-15 potential horsepower worth the loss of throttle response and the extra $1k-$1.5k for the IC setup? Undoubtedly a few of you will answer "yes". But how many people would at that pricepoint? Could a company make a business case for it?

[turbophil]

Originally Posted by robains

Phil,

On a side note, do the lower comp pistons you used weigh less?

Rob

P.S. For you folks fearing engine life issues, do bare in mind that a NEW (not rebuilt) short block and cylinder head with valves comes it under $2000 -- which is less than the SC. Just an FYI.

Good point on the cost issue Rob. These 2zz mills are cheap in more ways than one

Yes, the mahle forged pistons are lighter and they drop right in the stock block. No Balancing required in a cse like this...
A quick filing of the rings, swap the rods, and you're good to go... It's certainly not complicated. I could easily do it in a day with the engine still in the car... (it IS a clam off or tilted up operation though). Granted I know my way around the engine compartment fairly well... I would say most anyone else could knock it out in a weekend at a more leasurly pace...

Originally Posted by plastique999

Thanks for the clarification Phil, I agree that the stock pistons are def. maxed out around the 275 realm before needing to upgrade pistons for more durability. If you feel the stock pistons will hold with your kit, then I am game (reason being, I have the opportunity to upgrade to forged pistons, but that is a whole different ball game....compression, boost, tune, etc.) At this point, I am most concerned about reliability on the "glass engine."

Edit: I just read Rob's above post....so your pistons ARE upgraded?

Yes, I upgraded my pistons so that I can go further. My ambitions are 300whp -ish-....

The numbers I posted on this setup are conservative 10psi boost levels for those on high compression. 10psi boost and 11.5:1 (stock comp) is really all you can do on 91 gas since that will get you to about 20:1 effective compression. 20:1 ECR +/- a point is considered the safe rule of thumb for 91 octane... I was only running 15:1+/- ECR and pulling those numbers, therefore the numbers indicate a stock engine will pull more HP than I did, all else equal...

Best,

Phil

[Illumiloti]

Originally Posted by turbophil

That said, I'll build a kit to mount to the S manifolds as well. However remember that the setup will all ready about max out the stock pistons w/o an IC. To add an IC and bump the boost up will push you further into that glass ceiling. So, adding an IC to the TVS system for Elise or NA Exige guys, in particular, would only really be a substantial benefit if you swapped the pistons for lower compression units and then go for a 300+ whp monster...
Phil

I (and I'm sure others) would go for this kit for my Exige S. I have a water to air IC so that would allow me the option of pushing the envelope even further at at later date.

[willhogan]

Originally Posted by robains

Phil,

On a side note, do the lower comp pistons you used weigh less?

Rob

P.S. For you folks fearing engine life issues, do bare in mind that a NEW (not rebuilt) short block and cylinder head with valves comes it under $2000 -- which is less than the SC. Just an FYI.

Where can you buy a new short block and head at this price? Short block alone is $1699 from MWR...

[Murix]

And then of course there is tuning. You are using a standalone to run this setup. That is what, another $3k in parts and then more in time and tuning?

[turbophil]

Here's where I got mine. 1,399... Rob went somewhere else...

DiscountToyotaParts

The tune is always a problem-- or not... one way or the other and at some point in the not too far off future, I imagine there will be a flash available for this setup...

Best,

Phil

[Redback]

Phil,

This kit (when completed) looks like exactly what I've been after!

I hate the doughy throttle response inherent in an IC'd set-up, so the better adiabatic efficiency of the TVS is perfect.

Incidentally, I had a chance earlier this year to drive Toyota's TRD Aurion developed here in Australia.

It has the same 3.5L V6 that will be going into the Evora, but they've equipped the TRD version with a TVS.

What a great poweplant! Unfortunately, they had to detune it to cater for the Aurion's (FWD) chassis deficiencies. Even so, a back-to-back drive of the TRD and the stock vehicle gave me an appreciation of what can be accomplished with a TVS.

It felt like a V8. A good one. Torque everywhere, great throttle response and what little noise the SC made was very pleasing.

If (when?) Lotus releases an Evora "S" I suspect it will have this TVS-equipped motor.

Probably a little out of my price range though, so I'm (really) looking forward to your kit for my Elise!

Cheers,

[Monsi]

all things being the same a car with an IC should have a bit more peak HP just because of the cooler charge(assuming the IC is doing its job) of course you get worse throttle response...