BOE Fabrication has done it again.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by charliex

1) nope
2) nope

money doesn't worry me since the number of people that actually want to tune their own ecu is very very small subset, they're vocal, but none the less a couple of %, i can offset that by the cost of the software if i wanted too

my tuning software is already used on standalone ecu's by end users including professional, semi and amatuer, its used in a couple of race series too, and has been for well over a year, so its just fine thanks, so thats not it either

i've been using the red ecu for over a year too, again more of this constant disinformation from the efi camp.

you cannot pass smog with an efi ecu, the lotus ecu has way more maps and settings than the efi, they have to pass emissions and stricter testing, thats a fact.

lotus issues new updates to cure problems, efi had to add features the car needed but didn't support, so of course they have to add updates, since it didn't work, people are stilll drilling holes in their throttle bodies it appears.

sometime last year when there was another one of thse efi vs charlie threads, and hte time before that, i pointed out we use the wide band when forcedfed/drs posted around the list of what the reflash can do vs the efi, i corrected it back then too.

I dunno where you guys come up with this stuff, again more talk about stuff you have no idea about, but yet frequently i keep seeing people telling me what i can and cannot do, you're listening to the wrong people.

the efi is catching up to our reflashes,not the other way around, we've continued to be ahead on almost everything. I do not believe we are now, or have ever played catchup too it.

as kris says, its two different markets and its a tiny percentage that need the ability to tune. I'm ok with that, i dunno why you guys need to keep up with all this astroturfing, i rarely ever mention the efi, i send people to kris who need a user tuneable solution, end of story.

to be honest, you guys don't really give me a lot of incentive to want to offer it anyway we've been over and over this ad naseum and i'm doing my best to stay out of it, it'd be great if people who offered other solutions checked facts or at least didn't offer it as authoratative answer, especially since everyone except phil i do business with anyway.

sucks that this has to take away from the original purpose of this thread...here I am contributing to it too, but I'll try to keep it short.

Charlie's stuff works...it's obvious. Our stuff (the DRS EFI) works too.

there are a lot of things one can do with our system. There's a lot of configurable outputs and inputs for many things the stock wire harness and ECU (the car for that matter) where never designed to provide. Sure, not all these things are important to the masses...Obviosuly the % of people who will need our solution is less than people who will get by just fine with a reflash. There also the cost difference.

To be fair, when referring to our EFI it should be noted that the generation of ECU that is most popular is based on the "1.2"...that's the "little box"...we have bigger guns in the arsenal, like the X5.

There's no "catching up" really. We're just trying to refine our product like anyone else. when the product was first developed it was for non-DBW cars, we then added that feature, we've had the wideband Lambda control since day 1, and there's other stuff we've worked on and are continuing to improve.

Charlie is doing his thing and we're not trying to battle anything out. Like Charlie stated, we do business with him too. He's been great. If he can send us business that's cool too.

I think what Rob was referring to with the emissions comment was he can simply unplug his DRS EFI box and plug in the stock ECU connector to revert to stock.

Rob, DMH, and others who track thier cars often, are a good example of who we feel benefit from our product b/c of the other race features we offer.

Pit lane speed limiters
Engine protection strategies
Data Logging
Adjusting rev limiters for different tracks
Adjusting fuel tables and spark tables for different fuels at tracks
Engine development

etc....

Kris

[robains]

Yeah this has gone thru the ringer a few times, but I guess I never understood why you - Charlie would not offer an end user a tuneable solution? Example; $1000 for fixed tune, $2000 gets you the software/interface and all the maps you need to do your own tunes and have a starting base.

I'm not doubting nor questioning Charlie's ability/skills (I don't think anyone is) -- I've just never heard why you don't make it available to the masses. Not only could the masses expand the knowledge base of your software/tunes over time, they might even discover some nice tricks along the way.

Too complex a process? Difficult interface? Would it require considerable amount of work to refine it for an end user? Unable to copy protect the software itself? Effort not worth it? You've kept the door closed and I'm just curious why?

Even with your current user base, I'm sure they'd love to get updates without having to send you the ECU. It's a relatively small Lotus community, it's not a Ford or GM environment.

Sorry if I brought this up again, and sorry if I've provided any inaccurate information. I think I've qualified everything I said accurately, but sometimes I miss. And sorry for the major thread diversion.

Rob

[...m...]

Originally Posted by robains

Too complex a process? Difficult interface? Would it require considerable amount of work to refine it for an end user? Unable to copy protect the software itself? Effort not worth it? You've kept the door closed and I'm just curious why?

...i think charlie's pretty clearly stated that it wouldn't be worth his investment to produce something with reasonable usability for the small minority of users interested in self-tuning solutions, particularly when they're already well-served by EFI...

[MaineLotus]

Originally Posted by Kris from DRS

the only horror stories I know of come from the angry guy.

Originally Posted by fzust

Shall I do a search?

[Sergialized]

You guys sound like a bunch of "Desperate Housewifes" the TV show of course...
ABC.com - Desperate Housewives - Home
"My ecu is better than yours"
"My heart is broken"

Lets start a thread, like who is:
Bree?
Susan?
Linette?
Gabrielle?
Katherine?
Mary Alice?

[charliex]

when i refer to catching up, its just a reply to robains saying that the software wasn't ready, but the reality is we had more features available before the efi did, thats all i'm saying by catch up, now the efi is a lot closer it still lacks features for a street car, and thats a big advantage to the reflashes, just as kris lists theirs, so lets look at it. full cam control, and i think we've still got a better setup for the cam control than the efi currently does if i understand correctly what cody was telling me yesterday.

Pit lane speed limiters

yes i can do this, with a switch, if its the same as valet mode.

Engine protection strategies

stock ecu already does this very comprehensively, has a full set of safety and limp home maps with diagnostics, and we've always had this.

Data Logging

yes does this too


Adjusting rev limiters for different tracks

limiter can be lowered for different tracks, but of course since we're not user tuneable its not really a feature, it only allows two settings at the moment.

Adjusting fuel tables and spark tables for different fuels at tracks

have supported this for a couple of years, same as we've been using the wideband for a couple of years. the ecu has 4 fuel strategies that are switchable with the throttle or a switch on the obd ii.

Engine development

i just do the software and interface hardware, so this is outsourced so its not a problem.

and of course we have full obd ii, emissions capable without changing anything so if you get pulled over by a portable emissions dyno on the road in cali you'l be ok, 100's of factory tuned maps we never have to mess with that got the benefit of all the factory testing and tuning. can handle any level of HP you throw at us. never any issues with the DBW (or had)

basically the same list i post everything the comparo gets posted.

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by Sergialized

You guys sound like a bunch of "Desperate Housewifes" the TV show of course...
ABC.com - Desperate Housewives - Home
"My ecu is better than yours"
"My heart is broken"

Lets start a thread, like who is:
Bree?
Susan?
Linette?
Gabrielle?
Katherine?
Mary Alice?

[Green Hornet]

THE PERFECT SOLUTION -

Here’s how we can solve this Pi$$ing Contest;

1. The kind folks at Lotustalk will supply 3 Lotus cars in basic form
2. Each of the Horsepower Solution service providers will work their magic on one of the cars.
3. Suspension modifications for each car will be done by Sector 111 and be the same for each car
4. Aerodynamic solutions will be by Sector 111 as well
5. All the specs of each will be laid out on a spreadsheet for all to see.
6. All prep work will be complete for the track season beginning in spring of 2010

All three cars will be delivered to me for evaluation. I will track the crap out of these cars. I will have to solicit an additional 2 drivers for the evaluation process (send your resume)

At the end of the summer 2010 I will supply thoughtful and thorough evaluations of each solution for all to see and consider. I’m sure there will pros and cons for each system. This will be good and valuable information.

In the fall of 2010 all 3 cars will be sold on LotusTalk so that the above mentioned suppliers can recoup some or all of their costs.

I realize this will be a huge amount of time and effort on my part. However, I am willing to make the sacrifice tor the benefit of all my friends here on LotusTalk.

Now - all we need to get started is an administrator for the project, agreement by the principals mentioned above and two co-drivers.

Wadda Ya Think People ???

[Kris from DRS]

Originally Posted by charliex

when i refer to catching up, its just a reply to robains saying that the software wasn't ready, but the reality is we had more features available before the efi did, thats all i'm saying by catch up, now the efi is a lot closer it still lacks features for a street car, and thats a big advantage to the reflashes, just as kris lists theirs, so lets look at it. full cam control, and i think we've still got a better setup for the cam control than the efi currently does if i understand correctly what cody was telling me yesterday.

Pit lane speed limiters

yes i can do this, with a switch, if its the same as valet mode.

Engine protection strategies

stock ecu already does this very comprehensively, has a full set of safety and limp home maps with diagnostics, and we've always had this.

Data Logging

yes does this too


Adjusting rev limiters for different tracks

limiter can be lowered for different tracks, but of course since we're not user tuneable its not really a feature, it only allows two settings at the moment.

Adjusting fuel tables and spark tables for different fuels at tracks

have supported this for a couple of years, same as we've been using the wideband for a couple of years. the ecu has 4 fuel strategies that are switchable with the throttle or a switch on the obd ii.

Engine development

i just do the software and interface hardware, so this is outsourced so its not a problem.

and of course we have full obd ii, emissions capable without changing anything so if you get pulled over by a portable emissions dyno on the road in cali you'l be ok, 100's of factory tuned maps we never have to mess with that got the benefit of all the factory testing and tuning. can handle any level of HP you throw at us. never any issues with the DBW (or had)

basically the same list i post everything the comparo gets posted.

I don't know what info you got from Cody, but I would take it with a grain of salt. He only worked here for about a year and his position was not involved w/ the tech aspects of these systems.

I'm aware of all the things the stock ECU can do. It's a modified Euro4 unit. I am also familiar with EFI Italy (we've been using it on the Landspeed Bio-fuel car for 2 years now). I've met Ole B in person and thier products are top notch.

I'm not going to get into a who can do what better. I think the products speak for themselves. I've said it over and over again, there is a need for what both systems offer. That's why we both have our respective reputations and customers.

Sure we can spend a bunch of money and time writing code to make our ECU do all the "street" friendly things the stock ECU does, but that would be a huge waste when you can just get your stock ECU reflashed and it works fine.

Instead we focused our efforts to use existing race worthy technology and implemented it into a package that was tailored to the Lotus.

Charlie, to address your statement about the VVTi control. We are controlling it pulsewidth modulated (just like the stock system). It uses a 3D map or numeric table with units of degrees as a setpoint. It's fully adjustable for the entire range of mechanical motion, RPM and Load axis are configurable as well.

The other things I briefly listed are just bonus features to help understand what other value our system offers, they work similarly to how you compared against the stock system, but packaged differently to be more convenient for a race car.

The Pit Lan limiter is just a toggle switch option we have for guys who are racing and need it.

The Engine Protection strategies are like the "limp home modes" you described, but are user defined and have the ability to use inputs not supported by the stock system normally, like Fuel Press, Oil Press, Oil Temp, and EGTs

The data logging and all the other things mentioned are self-explanatory enough. Thier just tools readily available for those who want to use them.

I guess to sum it up, the fact that there's still debate over this stuff is sort of crazy. I guess we've all made assumptions at one time or another. There's too much time wasted arguing this on the internet. People have choices, and ultimately that's good for the community.

I'll say it again, we're always suggesting Charlie's reflash to people who don't need our stuff, and will continue to do so.

Kris

[robains]

No way on stock ECU engine protection (except possible knock detection which is marginal at best - one sensor in the middle of the motor just isn't going to give me confidence). I don't know what engine protection you specifically refer to but atleast it is not implemented in stock ECU, just ask the numerous folks with blown motors running a stock ECU that hit the fuel slosh problem and/or oil slosh problem. Maybe you can "enable" these features with your reflashes but I'm not aware of a fuel pressure sensor in a stock setup even if the stock ECU could handle it?

There are a couple of stock oil pressure sensors, but again, they don't seem to offer any "protection". One is for VVT and the other appears to be more of an On/Off oil presssure switch no measured range.

I can understand that it might no be easy to turn your software into a good end user friendly interface and hence not worth the effort. I may not agree with you, but I can't understand your point. If I were to hazard a guess based on your customer base count, you probably have about $50,000 potential, sure if it takes 3-6 months to build a quality end user interface, then it might not be worth it -- pending what you "think" projected sales would be beyond current users base.

As far as not many people tracking their Lotus, I think you are WAY off on your estimate. Every event I've done (and these aren't LCS events), I see more and more and more Loti out on the track (many owners of which never post or even read this forum) -- people are catching on to Lotus being pretty fast while also being VERY easy on rotors, pads, tires, and fuel -- it's becoming a good track sustainable car (once one sorts out the engine reliability).

Anyway, I'm trying to encourage you (Charlie), not discourage. I think your user tunable efforts would be rewarded and I believe there is room to grow for both EFI and your product.

Rob

[elise/europa]

I remainber that when my car was equipped with Reflash, I was feeling that the car will stall when I was driving slow on highway. Probably drilling the throttle plate with the reflash should help this issue. My car was probably worst since my sixth gear is overdrive compared with the stock. My car was not starting very good too, the so nice tune was probably not done for cold temp as we have on North. Charlie, I really think that sometimes you don't need to respond everytimes to every thread. I think this one was specialy done by sergialised to say to Phil that he is very happy by the job is doing, why interfer?

Just to say that, the reflash is not perfect nor the EFI.

[ewalberg]

I've got a question back on topic, regarding the exhaust from the original post. So it's QUIETER than the base exhaust? At least at normal throttle levels below 4.5k rpm? That would be of distinct interest to me.

Charlie posted a picture of an exhaust can that had cought fire to the internals, and another person mentioned that certain mufflers may need periodic repacking... are this circumstances relevant to that quieter exhaust? (which would not be good for my daily driving purposes)

[elise/europa]

The point of teh exhaust was to obtain an exhaust quiet enough to be used on race track with noise restriction. But, the muffler as is is for sure not quieter than the original. I was able to ear every shift of Sergialised when I was following him. Mine is quieter, and I am running the stock muffler with some modification inside, and with PPE headers, seams mine is doing more noise than original. The BOE exhaust noise is quite nice to ear.

We will see next week-end if the noise level is OK for Mont-Tremblant track in Québec state.

[robains]

Originally Posted by ewalberg

I've got a question back on topic, regarding the exhaust from the original post. So it's QUIETER than the base exhaust? At least at normal throttle levels below 4.5k rpm? That would be of distinct interest to me.

Charlie posted a picture of an exhaust can that had cought fire to the internals, and another person mentioned that certain mufflers may need periodic repacking... are this circumstances relevant to that quieter exhaust? (which would not be good for my daily driving purposes)

I have NOT heard the bigger muffler that will be offered, I've heard the smaller unit -- it was actually quieter than I thought it would be given no Cat on the car. If the large muffler is on par with the Larini 8" in terms of sound levels, it will be plenty quiet for daily driver.

I plan to get the quieter version when available as re-packing and how it's able to flex is important to me -- I track my car 4-5 times a year (maybe more). I'm on my 2nd muffler (Larini 8"), my Arqray twin developed a rattle almost exactly just past warranty period (aka 1 year 5 days) -- I expect my Larini to burnout soon also, hence my desire for a muffler that can be repacked -- it's a lot cheaper to re-pack a muffler than to keep buying new ones.

Rob.

[turbophil]

Good questions... Let me see if I can explain...

I can't comment as to the pic Charlie posted other than it's from Frank's car. There must be something circumstantial about that burn out... and here's why...

To answer this and the PM's in one shot, I'll elaborate the best I can...

These mufflers are designed and built by guys from the Dan Gurney team (coincidentally drove a Lotus in the 60s I believe). They're on probably all but two or three of the Grand Am cars today.

These exact mufflers were on the Brumos car that won Daytona 24 hour this year and the winning Sun Trust car in 2005. About the only modern podium car they're not on is the Ganassi car- they have their own exhaust. Everyone else uses Coast as far as I know. They're THAT GOOD. You'll find pics of these mufflers glowing red hot and they'll stay that way for the whole race. The same muffler will often get used for 3, 4, or 5 races. We don't come even close to working the exhaust that hard in years worth of use in the "Lotus World"... So the pedigree and reliability is there and is proven...

Most of the exhausts on the market today are not rebuildable and the ones that are blow out in about 3 track sessions, IME. The packing WILL blow out to less than ideal levels in far less than a full track season on all of them, 2bular, Vonhep, Larini, Miltek, etc. Then you're left with a real pretty exhaust that's louder than it should be and robs power (yep, blown out exhausts rob power)... The cans like I helped Serge with, are packed with some secret sauce (stainless steel to be specific). They will still degrade over time but they'll last about 4X longer than fiberglass... and when they do get loose, you simply repack them and they're good as new... A typical street car will probably be able to go years without degredation (just a guess)...

All I did is take what all the racers are using and play with different configurations to derive a sound and setup that I liked. I've purchased multiple different lengths, different packing materials, and different diameters, to come to the two sound levels I thought best and then design/build a mount that would work for both cans and still flex a bit to avoid cracking and sound transfer. Some combinations had more or less drone and sound attenuation than others, so it took several stabs at it to get it "right." I've been trying different mufflers all summer long. Just when I came to one I liked, something came up that didn't work or I ended up not liking...I finally feel I've got the combo pretty much dead on. The quiet version weighs about 10-11lbs with the mount and the louder version weighs about 7-8lbs with the mount. The mount is kind of trick as it flexes a bit to move with the engine and it prevents the exhaust from walking off the head pipe as well.

The quiet version is louder than stock, but has zero drone and will *probably* pass laguna type sound regs on a car with stock headers and a cat. It's quiet but very throaty- again louder than stock though... Serge can give his opinion on it too (he does have cat delete though, so his will be louder than a cat car obviously)...

The louder version is simply perfect, IMO. For tracks with no sound restrictions it's sweet. No drone, and it really talks to you... I LOVE it--- even better than my many VonHep style exhausts I've had and those sounded excellent

Hope that helps on the exhaust stuff...

Best,

Phil

[robains]

It does help, thank you Phil.

Rob.

[luxige]

Originally Posted by robains

When's the last time you bought a part/service from someone and they called you up after your track event and asked how it went? Phil does this, Kris at DRS (EFI) does this -- it's nice to have someone who actually gives a ****, and isn't in it for just the money.

Rob

Can't say enough about these guys. Both have been free with time and advice for me. The best!

[ewalberg]

Yep, that definitely answers some questions. Drone is probably the biggest problem with the stock exhaust.

Part of the understanding that i lack is that serious track time just plain eats mufflers. I come from SUV land where my vechiles serve as primary snow vehicle and the exhausts rust out before they stop "working"... I didn't realize that there are other scenarios in which they fail apart from cracking to due mounting/flexing issues.

Part of my assumption was that my stock exhaust would likely hang in there for as long as i own the car provided i have it's bolts checked for tightness... so hearing about these custom exhausts wearing out and needing re-packing seemed like there was something going on where their performance benefit was worth the additional service required... as opposed to the addition service or replacement always being required because they all fail (including stock?) in heavy use.

So it sounds like the reality is that these mufflers aren't less durable than the stock exhaust... they're likely more durable, both on track and i think i understand that perhaps they're also more durable on street too... I'm thinking stainless steel shouldn't age any worse than fiberglass...

Since mines a DD, i'd be keeping my cats too. WHat's the price point on a muffler swap with the quieter one? It looks like the only option for it is to cut a hole in the rear panel right side? (or a panel eliminator kit) As opposed to being able to maintain stock exit locations.

[Shawn C]

I think both of you guys have allot to offer us Lotus guys, I get lost reading all this stuff and I just want my car to go fast, and both of you guys are good at doing that! Case closed lol

[robains]

I was just going over my car after last weekend's event at the track (Thunderhill) and noticed this on my Larini Sport 8 muffler.

My Larini Sport 8 lasted 11 months (retail $650). Prior to this my Arqray Twin tip lasted about 13 months (retail $1200) - internal rattle. Each muffler lasted about 3 track events and about 8000 street miles.

Not complaining, because I was warned that these mufflers will last about 1 year on supercharged cars that are tracked, so I expected it.

Rob.