JUST SAW THE 2-ELEVEN AND ???

[Andrikos]

Originally Posted by LARRY

Elementary school again...

Come on Larry,
It's time to move on.
Forget about the past and look into the future.
Seriously.
Elementary school should be a concern for your grandkids, not you...

[EVO1313]

JACK, YOUR KNOWLEDGE AMAZES ME. ITS NOT EVEN YOUR TOWN AND YOU KNOW ITS THE FACTORY CAR.

[dsolomon]

Originally Posted by LARRY

Yes! Straight answers and wit are great!

But constant sarcasm from everyone here? Nah...

I don't think there is constant sarcasm from everyone here. It's more directed towards your need to post your 1/2 cent in every thread no matter how little you have to contribute to that particular topic.

[LARRY]

Sarcasm/insults.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by EVO1313

JACK, YOUR KNOWLEDGE AMAZES ME. ITS NOT EVEN YOUR TOWN AND YOU KNOW ITS THE FACTORY CAR.

It is the only one in this hemisphere

[mevistox5]

Originally Posted by Vulcan Grey

I asked Nick Adams about the brakes at LOG27, he said better brakes weren't needed due to the weight difference. He also did well over 125laps at the track without problem...

But Nick Adams (and all other LOTUS factory testdrivers for that matter) aren't the benchmark for us here. They also claim that the standard brakes on the S are good for track use. Hence I even sat next to them in the S on the track on a demo day. Yes,it really felt up to it's task...... I think braking technique has something to do with it also.

Can't comment on Patricko's brakeproblem though, since I
a) I wasn't sitting next to him in the car
b) I'm not involved in researching this issue.

The only thing I know is that the bigger brakes can be overcooked too.......That's probably due to my lack of skills.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by mevistox5

But Nick Adams (and all other LOTUS factory testdrivers for that matter) aren't the benchmark for us here. They also claim that the standard brakes on the S are good for track use. Hence I even sat next to them in the S on the track on a demo day. Yes,it really felt up to it's task...... I think braking technique has something to do with it also.

Can't comment on Patricko's brakeproblem though, since I
a) I wasn't sitting next to him in the car
b) I'm not involved in researching this issue.

The only thing I know is that the bigger brakes can be overcooked too.......That's probably due to my lack of skills.

The other think to remember is that Hong Kong is a very hot and humid climate. Couple that with a track that you are in 5th gear 6 times and from 5th to 2nd three times and 5th to 3rd twice and me running slicks and my unsympathetic driving style and that could be it. The other factor that was mentioned is that the brake fluid in my car has been there since February and I drove all over the UK in the rain for 1,700 miles in June then the car went on the water. Also my brakes may have needed bleeding.

OK, that was a lot! So I am not sure what the problem was but it could be multiple issues combining to cause it.

[Rich H]

Originally Posted by Patricko

The other think to remember is that Hong Kong is a very hot and humid climate. Couple that with a track that you are in 5th gear 6 times and from 5th to 2nd three times and 5th to 3rd twice and me running slicks and my unsympathetic driving style and that could be it. The other factor that was mentioned is that the brake fluid in my car has been there since February and I drove all over the UK in the rain for 1,700 miles in June then the car went on the water. Also my brakes may have needed bleeding.

OK, that was a lot! So I am not sure what the problem was but it could be multiple issues combining to cause it.

Hot humid climate and driving in the rain are not problems unless your brake system has a leak in it. Also, heavy brake use multiple times per lap is the norm on most tracks, at least in the US. A track car braking system that won't withstand such use is simply inadequate.

You may not be the best driver but, on the other hand, if you were an Alonso you'd be going much faster and using the brakes that much harder when you applied them.

I suggest that you, and all other 2-11 buyers, jointly insist that LCUSA deliver these cars new from the factory with a braking system at least as robust as the one factory-fitted to the S1 Motorsport cars.

I've "been there, done that" with two "not quite ready for prime time", but otherwise brilliant, track cars that I bought new from LCUSA over the years. I eventually got both right with a lot of help from LCUSA (give them credit for that), and I still own one that I like a lot, but the efforts were expensive and time-consuming hassles.

Help Lotus get it right from the start this time.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Rich H

Hot humid climate and driving in the rain are not problems unless your brake system has a leak in it. Also, heavy brake use multiple times per lap is the norm on most tracks, at least in the US. A track car braking system that won't withstand such use is simply inadequate.

You may not be the best driver but, on the other hand, if you were an Alonso you'd be going much faster and using the brakes that much harder when you applied them.

I suggest that you, and all other 2-11 buyers, jointly insist that LCUSA deliver these cars new from the factory with a braking system at least as robust as the one factory-fitted to the S1 Motorsport cars.

I've "been there, done that" with two "not quite ready for prime time", but otherwise brilliant, track cars that I bought new from LCUSA over the years. I eventually got both right with a lot of help from LCUSA (give them credit for that), and I still own one that I like a lot, but the efforts were expensive and time-consuming hassles.

Help Lotus get it right from the start this time.

Hi Rich,

I defer to your brake experience/knowledge, however I've been told by braking experts that brake fluid adsorbs water at every opportunity despite there being no "issues/leaks" with the braking system. It absorbs water through the breathers, through the caliper piston seals and by magic , given its hygroscopic nature. I've read that ..."a minute amount of water suspended in the fluid decreases the boiling point as much as 1/3." I've also been told that operating a vehicle in a predominately wet environment (vs a dry one) will only increase the likelihood of fluid degradation and as such the fluid should be changed more often than otherwise is the case despite other constants, such as hard track usage.

Prior to Patrick's car arriving in Hong Kong, it was subjected to serious moisture and usage (read his intial post about taking delivery of his beauty in England) for virtually all of its initial 6 months of existence w/o a fluid change. It's my inderstanding that he was running the original factory filled fluid at the race. Perhaps it's possible that the SRF fluid's boiling point may have been significantly degraded causing the brake problem once in a racing environment. I'd try a fluid change and bleed before giving up on the 2-11's braking system. In the end, you may be correct.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by Jack

Prior to Patrick's car arriving in Hong Kong, it was subjected to serious moisture and usage (read his intial post about taking delivery of his beauty in England) for virtually all of its initial 6 months of existence w/o a fluid change. It's my inderstanding that he was running the original factory filled fluid at the race. Perhaps it's possible that the SRF fluid's boiling point may have been significantly degraded causing the brake problem once in a racing environment. I'd try a fluid change and bleed before giving up on the 2-11's braking system. In the end, you may be correct.

Hello Jack,

Yes, that is correct I was/am running the original fluid that was put in the car when it was built at the end of January.

Patrick

[Rich H]

Originally Posted by Jack

Hi Rich,

I defer to your brake experience/knowledge, however I've been told by braking experts that brake fluid adsorbs water at every opportunity despite there being no "issues/leaks" with the braking system. It absorbs water through the breathers, through the caliper piston seals and by magic , given its hygroscopic nature. I've read that ..."a minute amount of water suspended in the fluid decreases the boiling point as much as 1/3." I've also been told that operating a vehicle in a predominately wet environment (vs a dry one) will only increase the likelihood of fluid degradation and as such the fluid should be changed more often than otherwise is the case despite other constants, such as hard track usage.

Prior to Patrick's car arriving in Hong Kong, it was subjected to serious moisture and usage (read his intial post about taking delivery of his beauty in England) for virtually all of its initial 6 months of existence w/o a fluid change. It's my inderstanding that he was running the original factory filled fluid at the race. Perhaps it's possible that the SRF fluid's boiling point may have been significantly degraded causing the brake problem once in a racing environment. I'd try a fluid change and bleed before giving up on the 2-11's braking system. In the end, you may be correct.

Just offering a suggestion Jack. Easier to get the car that you want while its being built at the factory, rather than through later retrofit - a lesson I've learned through trial and error.

What you say about brake fluid absorbing water at every opportunity is generally true. But a few months/few hundred miles of wet weather causing new SRF (or any other high performance fluid), properly installed in a new properly-sized and functioning brake system, to absorb enough water to kill the pedal after a few laps is not what I would expect.

The problem seems to be the slicks, which do stress the brakes a lot more than treaded street tires. Lotus built the S1 Motorsport car to race on slicks in the UK Autobytel series, and equipped it from the beginning with larger brakes. The 2-11 is a similar weight, has likely similar downforce, and more horsepower, but smaller brakes.

[Patricko]

Originally Posted by Rich H

What you say about brake fluid absorbing water at every opportunity is generally true. But a few months/few hundred miles of wet weather causing new SRF (or any other high performance fluid), properly installed in a new properly-sized and functioning brake system, to absorb enough water to kill the pedal after a few laps is not what I would expect.

I did 1,700 miles in the UK in June in nearly 100% wet conditions.

[Jack]

Originally Posted by Rich H

Just offering a suggestion Jack. Easier to get the car that you want while its being built at the factory, rather than through later retrofit - a lesson I've learned through trial and error.

What you say about brake fluid absorbing water at every opportunity is generally true. But a few months/few hundred miles of wet weather causing new SRF (or any other high performance fluid), properly installed in a new properly-sized and functioning brake system, to absorb enough water to kill the pedal after a few laps is not what I would expect.

The problem seems to be the slicks, which do stress the brakes a lot more than treaded street tires. Lotus built the S1 Motorsport car to race on slicks in the UK Autobytel series, and equipped it from the beginning with larger brakes. The 2-11 is a similar weight, has likely similar downforce, and more horsepower, but smaller brakes.

You could be right -- I anxiously await the opportunity to play with my 2-11's brakes.

My only point of reference is my Cup240 -- no brake issues with the heavier (~500 lbs) Cup240 on slicks using the same brakes as on the 2-11. Of course, this was only doing extensive track days and not "real racing".

[Patricko]

For more detailed info on the track and a better map have a look at this post.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...0&postcount=87

[Rich H]

Originally Posted by Jack

You could be right -- I anxiously await the opportunity to play with my 2-11's brakes.

My only point of reference is my Cup240 -- no brake issues with the heavier (~500 lbs) Cup240 on slicks using the same brakes as on the 2-11. Of course, this was only doing extensive track days and not "real racing".

Well, I'd expect the 2-11 to reach considerably higher speeds between corners. But you're right, track day sessions are less stressful than racing.

The standard Elise, i.e., 2-11, brakes are essentially the same as first came on the S1 Sport 190, like mine - also around 500 lbs. lighter than your car. And I think its fair to say that those who have used their Sport 190s much on the track have found those brakes stressed with AO37 tires - never mind slicks. But better pads, SS lines, SRF, and aluminum-belled discs help. Three of those improvements come standard on the 2-11, consistent with the 2-11 brakes working OK with AO48s.

Have fun.

[DPM]

The stock brakes are fine on my car. However, I changed the pads to Porterfield R-4's and the fluid to a 570 degree rating. I think that's what needs to be done on the brakes to make them last longer. I followed an Ariel Atom for a few laps and dogged him around the track. He couldn't shake me, I was trying to get some good video of how the car handled. Unfortunately my video camera memory card worked itself loose and corrupted the file. I would have had some great video of it oversteering all over the track.

Granted my car is much lighter than a stock Elise or a Cup car for that matter. Last Monday I ran three 30 minute sessions with a 30 minute break in between the ran another 30 minute after lunch followed by a 60 minute session. Brakes were never an issue.

[lotusmark]

Originally Posted by Rich H

Well, I'd expect the 2-11 to reach considerably higher speeds between corners. But you're right, track day sessions are less stressful than racing.

The standard Elise, i.e., 2-11, brakes are essentially the same as first came on the S1 Sport 190, like mine - also around 500 lbs. lighter than your car. And I think its fair to say that those who have used their Sport 190s much on the track have found those brakes stressed with AO37 tires - never mind slicks. But better pads, SS lines, SRF, and aluminum-belled discs help. Three of those improvements come standard on the 2-11, consistent with the 2-11 brakes working OK with AO48s.

Have fun.

It's not the brakes or pads even with slicks, it's the rotors. They are total crap. There have been cars in the UK that have run 24 hr endurance races with the stock calipers. They're up to it. The rotors are made of cheese.

[shay2nak]

damn, wtf is up with all the sarcasm and bullsh*t on here lately? ya'll need hugs.