97 V8 in Sac: good deal? - LotusTalk

IamBatman · 06-12-2007, 11:28 PM

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/347293657.html
I'm not looking for a '97, but this seems like a good deal for someone
btw, is it me or does the bottom left picture look funny.. like the rear end is jacked up?

StallionX · 06-13-2007, 04:43 AM

best deal I have ever seen.. I would be very cautious.. or who knows maybe this guy is in a bad way..

CHTHHULHU · 06-13-2007, 07:44 AM

WOW... that would be awesome if all he says is true. If you have a Lotus mechanic in your area ask if he would mind letting your mechanic take a look at it.

StallionX · 06-13-2007, 08:27 AM

yeah..
it's a 97.. liners might be bad..
the transmission might be messed up..

there is a boatload of issues that could make this 28k deal into a 50k deal easily..

IamBatman · 06-13-2007, 02:49 PM

yeah... early V8s are scary to me.. how much would a proper engine transmission fix and upgrade to handle high horsepower mods cost? (liner, upgraded pistons? strenthened shafts? new synchros, race clutch?) I'm guessing more then the cost of this car?

lotuson74 · 06-13-2007, 02:54 PM

Damn, that car is identical to my 97! If I had the extra $$ I would go look at it & buy it myself if it is even remotely decent!! If the car is good and you both learn the car & treat it well - it is trully a $250,000.00 car!! that you will fall in love with.

StallionX · 06-13-2007, 02:56 PM

serpentor.. as long as you drive the car correctly the tranny can handle 500hp.. but you HAVE to drive the car right (no launching, no hard shifting in certain gears, let the synchro work)

Early v8's are terrifying and while a properly maintained and rebuilt engine will last forever the 97's are a mess..

the tranny can cost up to 12k, the engine rebuilt.. if major and you don't have a mechanic who can hook you up.. way more.. not to mention the plethora of other issues the car might have..

While a well maintained esprit is golden, a badly maintained car is worth very little.. Esprit's are funny this way.. which is why you see the values all over the map.

lotuson74, look at the price of this one though.. yeah there is a chance he is desperate or just doesn't care about money.. but there is a far more likely chance that there is some major issues w/ this car..

JeffYoung · 06-13-2007, 02:58 PM

It could get expensive. A rebiuld on a 918 is what, $10 to $15k? If you used forged pistons, etc, probably more. You don't need that though, because there are other problems that will prevent you from running higher boost -- lack of intercooler, the head gasket issues Mark Feffer talks about, etc.

The problem with the tranny is usually worn synchros, if the car is running stock power.

You just need to check the car out. There are a lot of decent Esprit deals out there, the market for the early v8s is still dropping. It may be a good car, that the guy just can't sell, so the price is low. It may be a junker. I certainly would not buy it without a lengthy drive, and a few hours at a shop that knows the cars.

StallionX · 06-13-2007, 03:08 PM

problem is even a lenghty drive isn't enough.. the gearbox has to be opened to look at it.. though you might be able to feel it in the shifting in some cases if you know what to look for..

JeffYoung · 06-13-2007, 03:17 PM

Notchy synchros. Pretty easy to feel by driving it. Also, have the tranny fluid drained and see if there is metal on teh drain plug. If so, the synchros are wearing.

Taking the box out and looking at it -- the very same box that is in your car Stallion -- won't be cheap and isn't practical as part of a pre purchase inspection.

If you mod it, you can break the input shaft, regardless of how it is driven. The tranny's input shaft is not designed for more than the stock power.

lotuson74 · 06-13-2007, 06:45 PM

"A picture is worth a thousand words" The car could have some major issues & it is still a deal!! I can fully rebuild that motor with forged pistons, ARP studs, heads done, wires, coils, most sensors and more for $15,000. add a new clutch assembly, Quaife diff., $3,500 more. add a new radiator, brakes and suspension (complete with all bushings) $5,000. Lets even leave a $3,000 budget for interior issues. If you did all these things and "turned it up" like I do... you would have a virtually new (better than new) Esprit for for just $55,000.00 - Less than a new Exige!!!!! AND your car will be far more rare and alot faster in every way!! Please feel free to contact me for people who can do the work. You may need to add a couple $$$ to ship the car.
Also, all this talk about the transmission being "not so good" is more a reflection of its difficulty to use. They are "roadrace" gearboxes NOT drag boxes! They feel notchy (use a light touch & TWO "2" motions to change gears - not one!) Take it easy or don't do "stop light drag races" The tranny is most difficult in city traffic (these cars just don't care for that) especially if you are in a hury. The transmission is not a problem BUT... if you do break it, getting a replacement IS a problem!
I STAND BY MY FIRST OPINION - BUY THAT CAR!!!

lotuson74 · 06-13-2007, 06:57 PM

Often the cause of that notchy feel is: use of the wrong oil. Also, I personally like the 97's shifter cables (they are setup differently than the other years) better. It shifts smoother than the newer cars once the cables are properly adjusted. And with this many miles on it... It is either a good one or it has already been rebuilt & I like the fact that the car has been driven! Can't drive if its in the shop! And it looks THAT good? Trust me - its a deal, If you want an Esprit. Question is; Are you sure you want an Esprit?? They do require alot of time!

lotuson74 · 06-13-2007, 07:19 PM

I am also noticing that the sterio was upgraded. The 97 did not have speakers in the door. This is another good sign because - it was upgraded with the factory peices used in the later years. Everyone knows that the sterio is the first thing people butcher. If this was done right...

AnsisK · 06-13-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lotuson74

Also, all this talk about the transmission being "not so good" is more a reflection of its difficulty to use. They are "roadrace" gearboxes NOT drag boxes! They feel notchy (use a light touch & TWO "2" motions to change gears - not one!) Take it easy or don't do "stop light drag races" The tranny is most difficult in city traffic (these cars just don't care for that) especially if you are in a hury.

All of what you described is pretty much defining a "not so good" gearbox.

JeffYoung · 06-13-2007, 10:41 PM

Uh, it is a Renault box, not a "road race" grearbox. It's fine for cars with less than 350 hp, although it does wear synchros and 2nd and 5th gear are weak. Kirk is right that particular care must be taken with shifts, especially the long throw on the 1-2 upshift.

You'd also be crazy to put $30k into an early V8 unless you intend to keep the car forever. You'll never get anything like that back. Pristine low mileage 97-99 Esprits don't go for over $40k anyway.

IamBatman · 06-14-2007, 12:43 AM

yeah my impression of the early V8 is that the drivetrain is fragile and expensive.
Unfortunately Lotus didn't think to put in the ZF transaxle like the one in the Detomaso Pantera, that box is friggin bullet proof and comes with an LSD.

IamBatman · 06-14-2007, 12:46 AM

Lotus74:The problem with the 97 is that after spending all those money doing all those mods, it'll still not be worth much because of the scary reputation.

JeffYoung · 06-14-2007, 05:02 AM

Serpentor, the ZF is a GREAT box. Problem is it cost what, $15-20k? I know some guys who buy rusty Panteras just for teh box and trash them.

Kirk/STallion, great article in the Remarque (the Lotus LTD club newsletter) on the Renault UN1 gearbox this month by Craig Phillips, who owns a 01 V8. Box actually came out of a Renault delivery van (I'm not kidding). Tough box, good box, but designed for way less torque than the Renault V8. Three major problem areas -- 5th gear, and the input shaft and one other (have forgotten already, but I can post the article). He says $4k in PARTs to fix, plus labor.

Note that they way you shift or drive has nothing to do with this. Under load, the V8 is putting too much torque through that box if modded.

But anyway, we've been down that road already.

lotuson74 · 06-14-2007, 05:20 AM

If what the car is "worth" to someone "else" is what is important to you, do everyone a favor - Do not buy the car!! (go trade stocks) The fact is - if rebuilt as I stated in here, this car will be a beautiful & very rare car that is way... WAY... WAY FASTER than anything under $500,000!!! (better looking too) It will also comand admiration everywhere you go & it will be reliable too! But do note: I am working hard on finding the car a loving home. One deserving of such a car!!

JeffYoung · 06-14-2007, 05:35 AM

Kirk, what the car is worth to someone else is important for this reason: when I need to sell it, I need to be able to sell it for a reasonable amount. If I was planning on keeping a car for my whole life, then resale doesn't matter. I don't have that plan with ANY car I buy. If you do, that is cool, but for almost everyone else, sinking $30-40k into a 97 Esprit V8 is a bad idea.

06-12-2007, 11:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
IamBatman Exige? SEXIGE! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,609 Images: 1	97 V8 in Sac: good deal? http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/car/347293657.html I'm not looking for a '97, but this seems like a good deal for someone btw, is it me or does the bottom left picture look funny.. like the rear end is jacked up?

06-13-2007, 07:44 AM	#3 (permalink)
CHTHHULHU 2000 Esprit Azure Blue Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 409	WOW... that would be awesome if all he says is true. If you have a Lotus mechanic in your area ask if he would mind letting your mechanic take a look at it. __________________ 2000 Esprit Azure Blue Metallic

06-13-2007, 02:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
lotuson74 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 567	Damn, that car is identical to my 97! If I had the extra $$ I would go look at it & buy it myself if it is even remotely decent!! If the car is good and you both learn the car & treat it well - it is trully a $250,000.00 car!! that you will fall in love with. __________________ Kirk Will this do??? Artic silver Elise, Ohlins, Monolites, Q.S. header Arqray Ti. & more 99 Sport 190 Elise 02 Mini Cooper S 03 Dinan BMW S-3 Supercharged X-5 4.6is 06 F-250 Diesel, 11 inch lift, 1000lb ft. hauler 04 Radical SR-4 Racecar 97 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 04 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 90 Nissan 300 zx TT showcar with 680 r.w.h.p.!! 02 BMW 330i (needed something practical!) 06 BMW M5 with Schnitzer & Dinan mods. (3) Racebikes built by Richard of Attack Racing

06-13-2007, 06:45 PM	#11 (permalink)
lotuson74 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 567	"A picture is worth a thousand words" The car could have some major issues & it is still a deal!! I can fully rebuild that motor with forged pistons, ARP studs, heads done, wires, coils, most sensors and more for $15,000. add a new clutch assembly, Quaife diff., $3,500 more. add a new radiator, brakes and suspension (complete with all bushings) $5,000. Lets even leave a $3,000 budget for interior issues. If you did all these things and "turned it up" like I do... you would have a virtually new (better than new) Esprit for for just $55,000.00 - Less than a new Exige!!!!! AND your car will be far more rare and alot faster in every way!! Please feel free to contact me for people who can do the work. You may need to add a couple $$$ to ship the car. Also, all this talk about the transmission being "not so good" is more a reflection of its difficulty to use. They are "roadrace" gearboxes NOT drag boxes! They feel notchy (use a light touch & TWO "2" motions to change gears - not one!) Take it easy or don't do "stop light drag races" The tranny is most difficult in city traffic (these cars just don't care for that) especially if you are in a hury. The transmission is not a problem BUT... if you do break it, getting a replacement IS a problem! I STAND BY MY FIRST OPINION - BUY THAT CAR!!! __________________ Kirk Will this do??? Artic silver Elise, Ohlins, Monolites, Q.S. header Arqray Ti. & more 99 Sport 190 Elise 02 Mini Cooper S 03 Dinan BMW S-3 Supercharged X-5 4.6is 06 F-250 Diesel, 11 inch lift, 1000lb ft. hauler 04 Radical SR-4 Racecar 97 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 04 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 90 Nissan 300 zx TT showcar with 680 r.w.h.p.!! 02 BMW 330i (needed something practical!) 06 BMW M5 with Schnitzer & Dinan mods. (3) Racebikes built by Richard of Attack Racing

06-13-2007, 06:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
lotuson74 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 567	Often the cause of that notchy feel is: use of the wrong oil. Also, I personally like the 97's shifter cables (they are setup differently than the other years) better. It shifts smoother than the newer cars once the cables are properly adjusted. And with this many miles on it... It is either a good one or it has already been rebuilt & I like the fact that the car has been driven! Can't drive if its in the shop! And it looks THAT good? Trust me - its a deal, If you want an Esprit. Question is; Are you sure you want an Esprit?? They do require alot of time! __________________ Kirk Will this do??? Artic silver Elise, Ohlins, Monolites, Q.S. header Arqray Ti. & more 99 Sport 190 Elise 02 Mini Cooper S 03 Dinan BMW S-3 Supercharged X-5 4.6is 06 F-250 Diesel, 11 inch lift, 1000lb ft. hauler 04 Radical SR-4 Racecar 97 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 04 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 90 Nissan 300 zx TT showcar with 680 r.w.h.p.!! 02 BMW 330i (needed something practical!) 06 BMW M5 with Schnitzer & Dinan mods. (3) Racebikes built by Richard of Attack Racing

06-13-2007, 04:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
StallionX BANNED Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 841	best deal I have ever seen.. I would be very cautious.. or who knows maybe this guy is in a bad way..

06-13-2007, 08:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
StallionX BANNED Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 841	yeah.. it's a 97.. liners might be bad.. the transmission might be messed up.. there is a boatload of issues that could make this 28k deal into a 50k deal easily..

06-13-2007, 02:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
IamBatman Exige? SEXIGE! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,609 Images: 1	yeah... early V8s are scary to me.. how much would a proper engine transmission fix and upgrade to handle high horsepower mods cost? (liner, upgraded pistons? strenthened shafts? new synchros, race clutch?) I'm guessing more then the cost of this car?

06-13-2007, 02:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
StallionX BANNED Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 841	serpentor.. as long as you drive the car correctly the tranny can handle 500hp.. but you HAVE to drive the car right (no launching, no hard shifting in certain gears, let the synchro work) Early v8's are terrifying and while a properly maintained and rebuilt engine will last forever the 97's are a mess.. the tranny can cost up to 12k, the engine rebuilt.. if major and you don't have a mechanic who can hook you up.. way more.. not to mention the plethora of other issues the car might have.. While a well maintained esprit is golden, a badly maintained car is worth very little.. Esprit's are funny this way.. which is why you see the values all over the map. lotuson74, look at the price of this one though.. yeah there is a chance he is desperate or just doesn't care about money.. but there is a far more likely chance that there is some major issues w/ this car..

06-13-2007, 02:58 PM	#8 (permalink)
JeffYoung Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 837	It could get expensive. A rebiuld on a 918 is what, $10 to $15k? If you used forged pistons, etc, probably more. You don't need that though, because there are other problems that will prevent you from running higher boost -- lack of intercooler, the head gasket issues Mark Feffer talks about, etc. The problem with the tranny is usually worn synchros, if the car is running stock power. You just need to check the car out. There are a lot of decent Esprit deals out there, the market for the early v8s is still dropping. It may be a good car, that the guy just can't sell, so the price is low. It may be a junker. I certainly would not buy it without a lengthy drive, and a few hours at a shop that knows the cars.

06-13-2007, 03:08 PM	#9 (permalink)
StallionX BANNED Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 841	problem is even a lenghty drive isn't enough.. the gearbox has to be opened to look at it.. though you might be able to feel it in the shifting in some cases if you know what to look for..

06-13-2007, 03:17 PM	#10 (permalink)
JeffYoung Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 837	Notchy synchros. Pretty easy to feel by driving it. Also, have the tranny fluid drained and see if there is metal on teh drain plug. If so, the synchros are wearing. Taking the box out and looking at it -- the very same box that is in your car Stallion -- won't be cheap and isn't practical as part of a pre purchase inspection. If you mod it, you can break the input shaft, regardless of how it is driven. The tranny's input shaft is not designed for more than the stock power.

06-13-2007, 07:19 PM	#13 (permalink)
lotuson74 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 567	I am also noticing that the sterio was upgraded. The 97 did not have speakers in the door. This is another good sign because - it was upgraded with the factory peices used in the later years. Everyone knows that the sterio is the first thing people butcher. If this was done right... __________________ Kirk Will this do??? Artic silver Elise, Ohlins, Monolites, Q.S. header Arqray Ti. & more 99 Sport 190 Elise 02 Mini Cooper S 03 Dinan BMW S-3 Supercharged X-5 4.6is 06 F-250 Diesel, 11 inch lift, 1000lb ft. hauler 04 Radical SR-4 Racecar 97 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 04 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 90 Nissan 300 zx TT showcar with 680 r.w.h.p.!! 02 BMW 330i (needed something practical!) 06 BMW M5 with Schnitzer & Dinan mods. (3) Racebikes built by Richard of Attack Racing

06-13-2007, 10:41 PM	#15 (permalink)
JeffYoung Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 837	Uh, it is a Renault box, not a "road race" grearbox. It's fine for cars with less than 350 hp, although it does wear synchros and 2nd and 5th gear are weak. Kirk is right that particular care must be taken with shifts, especially the long throw on the 1-2 upshift. You'd also be crazy to put $30k into an early V8 unless you intend to keep the car forever. You'll never get anything like that back. Pristine low mileage 97-99 Esprits don't go for over $40k anyway.

06-14-2007, 12:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
IamBatman Exige? SEXIGE! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,609 Images: 1	yeah my impression of the early V8 is that the drivetrain is fragile and expensive. Unfortunately Lotus didn't think to put in the ZF transaxle like the one in the Detomaso Pantera, that box is friggin bullet proof and comes with an LSD.

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06-14-2007, 12:46 AM	#17 (permalink)
IamBatman Exige? SEXIGE! Join Date: May 2006 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,609 Images: 1	Lotus74:The problem with the 97 is that after spending all those money doing all those mods, it'll still not be worth much because of the scary reputation.

06-14-2007, 05:02 AM	#18 (permalink)
JeffYoung Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 837	Serpentor, the ZF is a GREAT box. Problem is it cost what, $15-20k? I know some guys who buy rusty Panteras just for teh box and trash them. Kirk/STallion, great article in the Remarque (the Lotus LTD club newsletter) on the Renault UN1 gearbox this month by Craig Phillips, who owns a 01 V8. Box actually came out of a Renault delivery van (I'm not kidding). Tough box, good box, but designed for way less torque than the Renault V8. Three major problem areas -- 5th gear, and the input shaft and one other (have forgotten already, but I can post the article). He says $4k in PARTs to fix, plus labor. Note that they way you shift or drive has nothing to do with this. Under load, the V8 is putting too much torque through that box if modded. But anyway, we've been down that road already.

06-14-2007, 05:20 AM	#19 (permalink)
lotuson74 Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 567	If what the car is "worth" to someone "else" is what is important to you, do everyone a favor - Do not buy the car!! (go trade stocks) The fact is - if rebuilt as I stated in here, this car will be a beautiful & very rare car that is way... WAY... WAY FASTER than anything under $500,000!!! (better looking too) It will also comand admiration everywhere you go & it will be reliable too! But do note: I am working hard on finding the car a loving home. One deserving of such a car!! __________________ Kirk Will this do??? Artic silver Elise, Ohlins, Monolites, Q.S. header Arqray Ti. & more 99 Sport 190 Elise 02 Mini Cooper S 03 Dinan BMW S-3 Supercharged X-5 4.6is 06 F-250 Diesel, 11 inch lift, 1000lb ft. hauler 04 Radical SR-4 Racecar 97 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 04 Lotus Esprit V-8 TT 90 Nissan 300 zx TT showcar with 680 r.w.h.p.!! 02 BMW 330i (needed something practical!) 06 BMW M5 with Schnitzer & Dinan mods. (3) Racebikes built by Richard of Attack Racing

06-14-2007, 05:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
JeffYoung Registered User Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 837	Kirk, what the car is worth to someone else is important for this reason: when I need to sell it, I need to be able to sell it for a reasonable amount. If I was planning on keeping a car for my whole life, then resale doesn't matter. I don't have that plan with ANY car I buy. If you do, that is cool, but for almost everyone else, sinking $30-40k into a 97 Esprit V8 is a bad idea.