Pilot bearing stuck to crank - LotusTalk - The Lotus Cars Community

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post #1 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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Pilot bearing stuck to crank

So I was moving along on my engine mods and come across another issue. I pulled motor because I would hear a whirring noise when engaging gears. Turns out circlip failed and pushed input shaft into back of crank. Now I see the outer bearing is sort of fused to crank. Is there any trick to get it out? Would hate to have to take out crank
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post #2 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rollingzep View Post
So I was moving along on my engine mods and come across another issue. I pulled motor because I would hear a whirring noise when engaging gears. Turns out circlip failed and pushed input shaft into back of crank. Now I see the outer bearing is sort of fused to crank. Is there any trick to get it out? Would hate to have to take out crank
Hi, put a small weld inside. It will come loose.


cheers,

Harry Martens
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post #3 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 10:54 PM
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Citroen circlip issue

Hi there:

Welcome to the forum -

Harry (dsvitesse1) is one of the experts on this issue and has all the parts/knowledge you need on this one.
I bought all my repair parts and even a Quaife LSD for my late 88 from him.

If you want to see more details on what happened, take a look through this thread.

Citroen circlip - pre-emptive strike

Eddie B
88 Esprit 'SLEEK GT'
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post #4 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-15-2017, 11:26 PM
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Which transaxle... Citroen or Renault? The Citroen Esprits use a small, cylindrical needle roller bearing, while the Renault Esprits use a much larger OD ball bearing. Your options are more limited with the little needle roller bearing. The needle bearing is supposed to be mounted with Loctite, so plan on using heat to get the bearing free.

There are INTERNAL 3-jaw pullers with slender arms' hooks face outward. The . Insert the arms through the bore, then spread the arms outward so the hooks grab the inner side of the bearing.

Alternatively, pack the spigot bore in the back end of the crankshaft with thick grease (at least NLGI #2)... some people even use packaged white bread. Then slip a close fitting shaft/ drift in through the bearing's bore, and smack it a mighty blow with a BFH-9000 (large hammer). The resulting hydraulic pressure will push the bearing out. A close fitting piece of bar stock will work, or perhaps the clutch centering tool. Even an old input shaft, but don't put your good one at risk. The job will require many whacks with the hammer.

Grease will squirt out when you smack the shaft, so wrap a rag around the shaft and slide it tight against the end of the flywheel flange. The first time I saw this demonstrated, the guy didn't use a rag. Grease flew all over the shop's far wall... and it was a nice 'finished' shop.

Good luck,
Tim Engel
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post #5 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 03:46 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry Tim it's the Citroen transaxle. I put hardened shaft with shoulder that I bought from JAE and hardened circlip but the racing from the old bearing is like welded to crank. I'm going to take a torch to it later and see if I can heat it up so I can possible chisel it out or something. The thing is there is no lip to catch on for the tool. I will also try the grease method tonight. Never easy
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post #6 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 05:52 AM
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Sorry Tim it's the Citroen transaxle. I put hardened shaft with shoulder that I bought from JAE and hardened circlip but the racing from the old bearing is like welded to crank. I'm going to take a torch to it later and see if I can heat it up so I can possible chisel it out or something. The thing is there is no lip to catch on for the tool. I will also try the grease method tonight. Never easy
Another trick is to use a tap. When the tap bottoms out, it will walk the bearing out.

Later,
Eldon
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post #7 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 08:12 AM
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Or, remove the crank, take it to a machine shop and have them machine an opening for a proper bearing. There is no better time now than when the engine is out and it will remove any worry about the circlip failing again.

Mike

'83 Esprit Turbo (The Fabulous Trashwagon)
'87 Esprit Turbo (FrankEnSPRIT)
'90 St Tropez Turbo
'04 Boxster S
'05 CO Elise, LSS, Touring, Hardtop, among others
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post #8 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-16-2017, 08:35 AM
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(Snip)... but the racing from the old bearing is like welded to crank. I'm going to take a torch to it later and see if I can heat it up so I can possible chisel it out or something. The thing is there is no lip to catch on for the tool. I will also try the grease method tonight. Never easy
If the bearing was installed with Loctite, then it's not going to move without first heating it to around 435F to kill the Loctite. You can beat yourself up all day long, and it won't move without heat. Get it hot.

Regards,
Tim Engel
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post #9 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 04:11 AM Thread Starter
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First of all happy Father's Day to all the papas out there. Now a quick question. Does the nylon washer go first then the pilot bearing or is it other way around?
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post #10 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 04:48 AM
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Nylon washer first, then bearing.

You can reduce the tendency for the nylon washer to wear by shortening the bias spring that goes in behind the input shaft. But, remember, the shaft DOES need that tension, so be careful not to totally eliminate it.

Atwell Haines
'88 Esprit
Succasunna, NJ USA


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post #11 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 05:39 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry I just epwant to be clear. So it's crank then nylon washer then pilot bearing then input shaft
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post #12 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 05:55 AM
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The picture that is worth a thousand words:

Name:  Nylon Spacer.JPG
Views: 85
Size:  20.4 KB

The 'black' thingie left of the nylon spacer is the pilot bearing.

I also attached an image of the tension or bias spring (#2)
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Atwell Haines
'88 Esprit
Succasunna, NJ USA


"Not all angels have wings." - Turbo R
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post #13 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 06:11 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot I needed that. Because in a another photo I saw it the opposite way and I already installed bearing. Didn't want to pull it out
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post #14 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 06:17 AM
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Here's what my damaged input shaft looked like when I removed it.

[IMG][/IMG]

Obviously it's blurry because I needed a few drinks after assessing the damage.

Atwell Haines
'88 Esprit
Succasunna, NJ USA


"Not all angels have wings." - Turbo R
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post #15 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 08:40 AM
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One end of the pilot bearing (aka, spigot bearing) has it's part number engraved on it. That end is to face out of the crank as installed. Just inside the bearing on that end there is a little rubber seal, and there is no seal on the un-engraved end. The rubber seal must end up outer-most when installed.

The bore in the back of the crankshaft is surrounded by a large tapered recess, like a very over-sized countersink. The bearing is pushed in until it is flush with the flat rear face of the crankshaft, NOT to the bottom of the recess. That leaves the end of the bearing standing a little exposed from the bore.

Install the flywheel, then install the clutch, using an alignment tool to center the disk duriing the install.

When it comes time to mate the transaxle to the engine, slip a fresh Nylatron washer onto the small end journal of the input shaft (ie, the 'pilot' or 'spigot' journal). Now, when the transaxle is installed, the parts order you asked about will be pilot bearing, Nylatron washer, input shaft. Just like the close-up illustration Atwell posted.

*~*~*
The Nylatron washer is an easy slip fit on the input shaft's pilot journal, and there is no retainer. It just ends up trapped/ squeezed between the pilot bearing and the shoulder on the end of the input shaft.

While the transaxle is being installed, take care to maintain forward progress. That way, anything that might catch on the Nylatron washer will be pushing it back against the shaft's shoulder. If you ever run into a problem and have to back-up, there is a risk of the Nylatron washer being hooked, and pulled off the end of the shaft. 'IF" you ever have to back-up, then back-up far enough to visually inspect the washer and ensure that it's still in place. Be aware that it is all too easy to inadvertently pull the washer off inside the clutch housing where it's out of sight.

*~*~*
Before installing the transaxle, buy two long bolts. BOLTS have a short thread at the end, and then a long, smooth shank. MACHINE SCREWS have threads all the way to the head. So, buy two long bolts, cut off the heads, grind a generous taper/ chamfer around the cut-off end, then use a hacksaw or Dremel/ cutoff wheel to cut a screwdriver slot across the end.

Install the bolts in the cylinder block's rear flange, in the left and right side holes that also accept the ring dowels. I don't have a length dimension for you, but the bolts should be long enough to engage the bell housing holes about the same time the end of the input shaft engages the clutch housing. The bolts will serve as guide pins for the transaxle, helping to keep it aligned with the engine as you slide it into position. Just one less thing for you to worry about when there's a lot of stuff going on.

It's also important to keep the transaxle "on-axis", and not tilted up or down, left or right. To do that, keep an eye on the gap between the bell housing and engine block, all around. Keep the gaps top & bottom, and left & right equal as you move the transaxle forward. I like to cut scraps of wood. 2x4, then 2x2, and finally 1x2. Slip a wide spacer into the gap and proceed until the bell housing makes contact on all sides... square it up. Then swap in the next smaller spacer, and go a little further. As soon as the bell housing is close enough to engage one of the longest regular mounting bolts, even if it's not in it's correct hole (or buy a selection of different length bolts for pulling), use them to pull the transaxle forward instead of trying to push it by hand. By the time the bell housing has made contact with your thinnest spacer block, it should be very well aligned with the engine, and the input shaft spline should have engaged the clutch disc's spline.

If the shaft & clutch splines butt heads rather than slip together, just put the transaxle in gear, grasp both output shafts, and rotate them both back and forth in the same direction. That will cause the input shaft to rotate as you force it forward against the clutch spline. That should help the splines engage easily.

When the bell housing finally contacts the block, remove any temporary 'pulling' bolts you may have used to draw the transaxle forward, and start installing all the correct bolts in their proper holes. Finally, use a screwdriver to remove the two long guide pin bolts, and replace them with the proper assembly bolts.

Regards,
Tim Engel

PS... If you're uncertain, ask questions prior. Don't ask for confirmation after. After can be expensive in terms of both time and money. Try to keep the 'tuition costs' on your learning curve as low as possible.

Last edited by Esprit2; 06-18-2017 at 10:59 AM.
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post #16 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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Tim thank you so much for the hints and tips. Actually I haven't worked on a 4 cyl motor in almost 20 years and when I took this apart 2/3 years ago I forgot how everything went back. Does the throw out bearing connect to this tube with oRings on each side? Does anyone have a diagram how it goes. While the service manuals are helpful they really lack in some areas. And I don't want to screw anything up
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post #17 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carbuff View Post
The picture that is worth a thousand words:

Attachment 1095633

The 'black' thingie left of the nylon spacer is the pilot bearing.

I also attached an image of the tension or bias spring (#2)


Nylon washer on the right:


From this post:
Citroen circlip - pre-emptive strike

Eddie B
88 Esprit 'SLEEK GT'
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post #18 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 09:42 AM Thread Starter
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I have same diagram as yours sleekGT. it doesn't really show anything
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post #19 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 11:36 AM
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rollingzep,
Do you have the Parts Manual? The exploded parts illustrations are very helpful, and often more descriptive than the written descriptions in the Service Notes (Workshop) Manual.

The clutch release bearing is pressed onto a long-ish, tubular hub, complete with two arms/ wings (see item 015 in the attached PDF) that locate it on the release lever via wire spring clips (see items 017 in the attached PDF). That bearing's tubular hub slides into the transaxle's internal tube that is sealed by O-rings at each end as you described. Lightly grease the inside of the transaxle's tube/ tunnel, and the outside of the release bearing's tubular hub prior to assembly (I use Anti-Seize). Also, lightlygrease the end of the release lever's pivot pin (item 020 in the PDF).

Slip the release bearing into the transaxle's tube/ tunnel, install the lever retaining Cotter key (item 021), and secure the bearing's 'wings' to the release lever's forked fingers. Getting the release bearing and lever mounted, and moving freely is a subject quite separate from the Nylatron washer that started this thread. Separate, but equally important.

After the release bearing/ lever is installed, slip the Nylatron washer onto the input shaft's end journal. The transaxle is now ready to be installed on the engine.

Regards,
Tim Engel
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Esprit USA 1983-87 340 - 47.01A, Citroen Clutch, Illust, 85kb.pdf (84.1 KB, 12 views)
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post #20 of 25 (permalink) Old 06-18-2017, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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Ok thanks tranny is attached to engine. I figured it out. All is going good and according to plan. I was about to install engine/tranny assembly into car but got hung up on the tranny mount. The bolts that bolt into caliper are frozen in place and now I have to get them unstuck and spinning so I could attach tranny mounts. If any one has a photo of how tranny mounts bolt on just to make sure I'm not screwing something up. I have bad case of ADD I think and when I started this project I should have finished it so I can remember what goes where and how. I pull motor on this car then I rebuild motor on another car while replace starters and clutches on a third car so I'm getting mixed up to what goes where. I was supposed to take out motor on this car but was waiting for some special order parts that took months to come. So while I was waiting I decided to rebuild ferrari 355 motor and as soon as I pulled motor on that car I decided pantera needs new clutch and starte while camaro was in need of rear end. So I'm sorry for asking a lot of questions but my memory is fuzzy and a lot of years passed by. So a big thank you to everybody.
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