What to get: NSX, 355, or Esprit V8

[Simba]

Originally Posted by Dino944

But in case you did not know, even in Ferrari circles it's considered among the priciest cars to maintain.

Dunno who told you that, but it's false. In most "Ferrari circles", the most reliable Ferrari is "the one I drive".

Headers/exhaust manifolds are one of the most common problems with that car. Even at an independent repair shop rather than an authorized dealer including parts and labor it's about $22,000 job.

Completely ridiculous. Even if you use Ferrari parts, and have it done at a Ferrari dealer, you would be extremely hard pressed to eclipse $7,000. The headers themselves are $6k from Ferrari, and it's maybe a 5-6 hour job. At $120-140/hr labor, you're not getting anywhere near that ludicrous figure.

Any independent worth his salt would do the job for around $4k using the Fabspeed headers. Which I've done for people, several times.

I know a guy that owned a Mondial, a 328GTS, a 355, and an F40. He once got a bill in excess of $20k for the repair I mentioned.

Then he got taken to the cleaners by a dishonest shop, or there was a lot more wrong with the car than a bad header. That is by no means an "average" repair cost. Rebuilding the entire bloody engine barely costs over 20k.

[Dino944]

Hi Simba,

no, it is not false that the 355 is considered among the priciest modern road Ferraris to own. Read Ferrarichat, read the Forza price guide/shoppers guide and check pricing for a major with belts and compare to other models. Eugenios in CA used to have a price list on line and I believe a 308 major with belts was around $3,500, it was arornd $4,000 on a 328, and around $7,000 on a 355. Not sure what his current pricing is. I believe TRs were one of the only prices that were higher than the 355.

As for reliability, I never mentioned that. A 355 might be as reliable as any other car, just it's service costs are greater.

As for what authorized dealers charge, I know one in CA wanted $9,400 to do a service with belts on a 328, which seems crazy! But if they can get $9,400 for a major and belts, then a repair bill of $20k may not be as ludacris or rare as you think.

I did see a copy of the guys bill in excess of $20k, so it was not an exageration. It's possible that some of the bill was ..."while we are in there X is also in need of replacement...". But even if some of the more than $20k bill was extra noticed once the engine was out, it just goes toward showing it's one of the pricier models to maintain.

This guy knew a lot about Ferraris and maintennance, so it's unlikely he was merely ripped off...but anything is possible. I can tell you he owned 4 Ferraris and the 355 was the only one he ever complained about generating outrageous repair bills.

There is nothing wrong with buying a 355, it's a wonderful performer and one of the prettiest Fcars in recent years IMHO.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you have extensive training on Ferraris and that you are less expensive than most authorized dealers or other independent shops. But there are plenty of mediocre techs who make a mess of these cars, with promises of cheaper work.

[Dino944]

I should also note that IIRC Eugenios old price charged significantly less for a major with belts on a 360 because the 360s & 430s have an interior acsess panel which allows these jobs and others, to be done with removing the motor. This saves the owners of newer Fcars quite a bit compared to what the same job costs on a 355.

Best regards,
Dino

[Simba]

Originally Posted by Dino944

Read Ferrarichat

I used to be quite active there. For every old salt who's actually turned a wrench on the cars, there are dozens of idiots who haven't got the first clue and who love to spread disinformation. "Because I read it on the internet" does not make it so.

Eugenios in CA used to have a price list on line and I believe a 308 major with belts was around $3,500, it was arornd $4,000 on a 328, and around $7,000 on a 355.

What does a major service cost have to do with a "$22k" header swap?

Regardless, yes, 30k services are expensive on the 355. About 1.5-2k more than cars that do not require the engine to come out. The flip side of that is that every 30k your oil lines, fuel lines, hoses, electrics, etc, etc are inspected rather than being left alone to rot. I've seen more than one 355 have a potentially major issue caught during the 30k. About as many 360s as I've seen burn to the ground, as it happens.

Service is expensive on any F-car, or even on the Esprit for that matter. However, the comment I took issue with was the ridiculous bill you rather strongly implied was a matter-of-course maintenance item for 355s. Not all headers go bad. When they do, it's a fairly trivial matter to deal with. It's certainly not something that costs anywhere near 20 grand-- you could ship the bloody thing to Maranello and have them do it at the factory for less.

Not sure what his current pricing is. I believe TRs were one of the only prices that were higher than the 355.

Service costs are subjective. Cook a F1 actuator in a 360 or 430 and you're looking at 10k, for example, but that doesn't mean if you buy one you'll need to do that. In my experience, which is not insignificant (I rent them, and deal with cars that have significantly greater maintenance demands), the 355 is overall no more expensive to maintain than any other modern Ferrari.

As for what authorized dealers charge, I know one in CA wanted $9,400 to do a service with belts on a 328, which seems crazy! But if they can get $9,400 for a major and belts, then a repair bill of $20k may not be as ludacris or rare as you think.

The fact that a shop can soak its customers makes it okay?

I'll say it again: NOBODY is going to change 20+k to change a set of headers on a 355. If you have evidence to the contrary, and this happened in any way recently, I strongly recommend you tell the owner to pursue legal action against the shop. I'd just love to see the breakdown of that bill.

To compare a major service with swapping a bad header (or two) is pretty disingenuous. They're two very different things with drastically different labor requirements. One requires pulling the rear wheels off and taking out the wheel liners. The other requires removing the engine and transmission from the car, and carrying out several very complex and time consuming procedures.

I did see a copy of the guys bill in excess of $20k, so it was not an exageration.

As I said, I'd love to see that bill.

But even if some of the more than $20k bill was extra noticed once the engine was out, it just goes toward showing it's one of the pricier models to maintain.

Well, no, it does not. If I buy a Ford Mustang and crash it into a tree every other week, one cannot conclude that it's simply very expensive to maintain.

I can tell you he owned 4 Ferraris and the 355 was the only one he ever complained about generating outrageous repair bills.

If he owned the cars you mentioned, and had less trouble with an F40 and a frappin' Mondial of all things, I'd love to know what the heck he was doing to that poor 355.

Anyway, my point here is that the 355 in practice is no more expensive to maintain than any other F-car. If you buy a dog of a car with a million things wrong with it, it'll be expensive. If you put 30k miles on it a year, it'll be expensive. If you let it sit in a garage and rot, it'll be very expensive. But in my experience, if you drive it normally and take care if it, they're nowhere near as hard to deal with as some claim. It doesn't have Honda maintenance costs, but then it also doesn't sound or drive like one.

[Dino944]

Hi Simba,

my original point was that ownership costs of a 355 are higher than many other Ferraris. The differences regarding major service costs was that it's another example of the cost of maintaining a 355 vs a 308 or 360. For you to say that comparison is disingenuous is at best discourteous.

In addition, my mention Fchat and other sources of Ferrari information, was not to say because it's on the internet that it's true. It was simply to state there are others out there that are in agreement with the idea 355s are more costly than many other models to own.

As for removing the engine for service, it does have it's advantages, but it also has it's costs. Its not as though fuel and oil lines need replacing every time the engine comes out. But one doesn't have the option of only removing the engine with every other service.

With regard to an authorized dealer charging $9,400 for a major with belts, it wasn't to suggest that I thought it was fair or reasonable. I believe I previously said it was crazy. It was to show if some places are charging that for a basic service with belts, then it's not so far fetched that someone might be seeing some bills maybe headers, maybe headers and a few "while we are in there items" and a 355 owner seeing a bill for $20k+.
As for your claim you've rented cars so what?

The fact you've rented some 355s or even if you've turned a wrench on some hardly makes you more of an expert on all 355s, than other owners or other techs.
As for a copy of the infamous bill, it was not my car so I don't have the bill. I don't recall everything on the bill but I do recall seeing headers on the bill and I recall the owner was astonished by the bill. He generally took very good care of his cars and did not buy "basket cases.". He may even have bought the car new,but I'm not positive.

Header/manifold issues are a known issue on 355s. Sure not all 355s have problems with them, but a good number of them have had problems with them.

Obviously, a Ferrari costs more to own than a Honda. No one considering a Ferrari expects the maintenance cost to be the same as a Honda. But there are various levels of ownership costs even among Ferraris. My only interest was in warning the original poster that the 355 does have a rep for being more costly to maintain than other Fcars. There is nothing wrong with that as long as someone knows what they may be getting into. As with any car someone can get a great trouble free example or a lemon. But if I was the original poster I'd rather be warned of a cars potential shotcomings and costs instead of having someone sugar coat things and give me a false sense of security.
You and I are never going to agree on any of this stuff, so it's probably better to agree to disagree.

[shawncweed]

Dino,

WOW...that is some serious coin...especially for a part you don't normally associate with failing very often...You are right too, the AMG SL series are not sports cars, more like GTs in the same vein as AM DB9 etc...I like the Esprit and it really hits a couple buttons with me...looks great, great performance, rare...and we already got to make the trip to JAX for the Elise to get it serviced so the hassle factor isn't that great. I just want a convertible...and while I do see the Esprit has a sunroof, it isnt a targa like the NSX which brilliantly stores on board BTW...

Hey...I leave tomorrow for Iraq again...this time as a contractor and for 90 days and not 15 months (I have spent 40 months there since 2003)...

I will let you guys know what we end up with in JAN-FEB...Most likely:

SL65 AMG
CLK63 AMG Black Series (coupe only though...so probably not likely)
M3 (wife isnt seeing it)
She shot down the Ferraris...the cost of some of the stuff just pisses her off...

Cheers and thanks for the notes...

S

[Simba]

Originally Posted by Dino944

my original point was that ownership costs of a 355 are higher than many other Ferraris.

No, it is not. Maintenance costs are, on average, about the same.

It was to show if some places are charging that for a basic service with belts, then it's not so far fetched that someone might be seeing some bills maybe headers, maybe headers and a few "while we are in there items" and a 355 owner seeing a bill for $20k+.

Again, there's no flipping way in hell you're getting a 20k+ bill to change headers and do a few "while you're in there" service items. Unless "while you're in there" service items are understood to include a clutch, 30k service, brakes, electrics, etc, etc-- I'll stand by my claim that it's disingenuous to suggest that "355's are more expensive to service" because you know one guy who got soaked, or has a bill that entails considerably more work than swapping a set of headers, as you're using an unrelated metric to "prove" a point.

Once more: It does not cost 20+ grand to change out a set of headers on a 355. Nor do headers routinely fail on the car. To suggest otherwise is misleading unless you have some pretty significant and compelling evidence to support that claim.

As for your claim you've rented cars so what?

Perhaps I was unclear-- I own an exotic rental company. I rent them to other people.

The fact you've rented some 355s or even if you've turned a wrench on some hardly makes you more of an expert on all 355s, than other owners or other techs.

It wouldn't, if that's what I'd said. However, the fact that I rent them to people and have a pretty significant degree of personal experience with the cars, does. I doubt many techs, and very few owners have experience with the cars under the duty intervals that are common in my line of work.

Header/manifold issues are a known issue on 355s. Sure not all 355s have problems with them, but a good number of them have had problems with them.

Some do fail, yes. I've seen two (one side each) cars with cracked headers. Out of over a dozen examples of the car that I've personally worked on. How many have you seen fail? And what are the average parts costs and labor hours you've seen with respect to changing them?

My only interest was in warning the original poster that the 355 does have a rep for being more costly to maintain than other Fcars.

And my issues are: 1) No, they are not, and 2) You quoted a misleading figure and suggested it's a common amount required to service a 355.

Had you said "Sometimes headers on 355s can crack, and it's expensive to fix them." I would not have said anything.

Had you said "A friend of mine owned/owns several Ferraris, and considers the 355 expensive to maintain" I would not have said anything.

However, you implied that your friend was billed 20+ grand to change a set of headers, and that this was a common issue and a representative cost for such a repair. That is not the case, and is misleading, hence I took issue with it.

Nothing personal, but I do not opine on things I do not have a significant degree of first hand, personal experience with. Those who do are generally responsible for a lot of the rumors that surround a given car or marque, and most of them are generally exaggerated or untrue.

Anyway, I think we've derailed this thread enough.

[Dino944]

Hi Simba,

again, you and I will just have to agree to dissagree. You are the only person I know, that says a 355 costs about the same as other Ferraris to own. It's simply not so. The headers and manifolds are a known issue with those cars and you still want to hang onto the idea not every single 355 has had this issue, so it's not an issue. Not every single vehicle has to have these issues for it to be a problem area on that model.

As for the $20,000 bill, I saw it so it's not something the guy made up. You don't have to believe it, you can say he was ripped off, that no other 355 owner could ever get a bill like that, or that he should have sued the shop or dealer that did the work...but after all is said and done that was the bill he received for work on his car. He wasn't happy about it, but that's what he was billed.

This guy found that his bills were rediculous compared to those generated by his 3 other Ferrari so he eventually sold it.

Again the cost of a major with belts is more for a 355 Than other v8 F cars. It does have header & manifold issues. I never hear of header or manifold issues on 308s, 348s, or 430s. If you want to hang onto the idea a 355 is no more costly to own than other F cars, go for it.

As I said before, you and I will never agree on the 355, let's just agree to dissagree.

[shawncweed]

Dino, Simba...

Regardless of the cost, the real issue is the fact we are so remotely located you couldnt even get the car to an authorized repair shop without significant hassles and a lot of down time away from the car...

When I get back we have to take our Elise down to Jax to get serviced and the Stage II exhaust put on it...and hopefully they will have an Esprit there. They sold a beautiful yellow 2003 last year that we saw there and they get them on occasion...right now though, based on the consideration of being able to get an extended warranty and the fact the dealer is just 20 minutes away from us and they already have proven awesome fixing some of our E55 AMG's issues, the SL65 seems the most prudent choice for us...

Different kind of car, but unique and enjoyable in its own way...